Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Quivers, Arrow Bags, and the Like... Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Josh Wilson




Location: WV
Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue 27 Dec, 2011 7:28 pm    Post subject: Quivers, Arrow Bags, and the Like...         Reply with quote

So from reading other topics on the forum, and looking at original pictures that have been posted, I see that the general consensus is that archers carried their arrows in their belts or in an arrow bag for transporting, and that the arrow quiver is more of a Tudor invention. However, Im curious about this image formt he Bayeux Tapestry.



Were these archers dismounted horse archers who needed quivers? Or did fashion and method change between the Norman Invasion and the Tudor Period? Or...? Also, what would these quivers have been made of? Leather? Wicker?

Thanks guys!
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the "belts or arrow bags" thing mostly applied to the English longbowmen. I have no problem believing that archers elsewhere in Europe used quivers, especially when both their crossbow-armed counterparts (as well as Eastern European and Middle Eastern horse archers) did too. Just look at these Burgundian archers from the Luzerner Chronik:

View user's profile Send private message
Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,192

PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you read "The Personal Carriage of Arrows from Hastings to the Mary Rose" by Jonathan Waller and John Waller (Arms & Armour, Vol. 7, No. 2, 2010)? If not, I recommend it. The two authors suggest "animal skin" or "heavy woven material, perhaps hemp" as materials for the quivers seen the Bayeux Tapestry.
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
View user's profile Send private message
Josh Wilson




Location: WV
Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the info guys!
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, and the Tudor quiver, while we're at it.


 Attachment: 59.97 KB
198288_2939517385710_709668102_n.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry for the thread necromancy but could you tell me the source of that image?
Best

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Have you read "The Personal Carriage of Arrows from Hastings to the Mary Rose" by Jonathan Waller and John Waller (Arms & Armour, Vol. 7, No. 2, 2010)? If not, I recommend it. The two authors suggest "animal skin" or "heavy woven material, perhaps hemp" as materials for the quivers seen the Bayeux Tapestry.


Thanks for the recommendation.

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Guy Bayes




Location: United States
Joined: 07 Oct 2012

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funnily enough I was just researching this

You need to make a distinction between "carry arrows to war" and "carry arrows to go hunting"

English longbowmen carried their arrows in wagons, which is quite sensible given that they were probably carrying 50+lbs of arrows per archer. When they fought, they stuck the arrows in the ground

When they went hunting they likely had some kind of belt quiver, does not seem to be much evidence for back quivers. They may have also just stuck them in their belt
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Extra arrows would have indeed been carried in wagons or on pack horses etc, probably in chests or barrels, Archers were expected to muster in general with one sheaf of arrows. This one sheaf was carried with them in a arrow bag, that can be suspended in a number of ways. See the above mentioned article. An archer without arrows to hand is an infantry man armed with a stick

Arrows can be carried in the hand and under the belt, but both these methods allow only a limed number to be held.

As to sticking arrows in the ground this is unlikely for a number of reasons, sticking a sheaf arrows in the ground takes time, and may not be easy with certain head types. Also there are references to arrow heads of issued arrows just dropping off, sticking them in the ground would just increase that, then your officer tell you to move, you then have to pull the arrows up out of the ground! The archers would need to be able to move, so they would need a method of carriage that allowed this to happen.
Pictorial evidence suggests arrow bags or the arrows themselves just laid on the ground. or arrows held in the girdle in different ways.

Pictorial evidence and inventories implies archers girdles, In the article we show way that a whole sheaf of arrows can be held in a girdle by certain means.

Even if we subscribe the the 1/4lb arrow theory, which I am not convinced of, but that is in another article in the pipeline, a sheaf of arrows would be 6lbs, Inventories and etc suggest an allocation of 1.5 to 2 sheaves per archer average. 12lb is still a reasonable weight but still something an archer could carry with them.
All of this is referenced in the article dad and wrote.
best

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Guy Bayes




Location: United States
Joined: 07 Oct 2012

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure I read an account of Crécy that had the arrows stuck in the ground, however can't find it. The wikipedia article also states this but does not list a source

"On the battlefield English archers stored their arrows stabbed upright into the ground at their feet, reducing the time it took to notch, draw and loose, as drawing from a quiver or arrow bag is slower."

but then again, wikipedia and all

Curious to anyone who knows a source?

Generally the 100 year war archers were shooting bodkin points which would not have much issue being stuck in dirt. There seems to be mixed opinions on how likely the points are to fall off, there are also historical accounts of reusing arrows which would tend to argue against a lot of that

From personal experience if I knew i was in a prepared position and not likely to move i would absoltely stick my entire arrow supply in the ground, hell of a lot faster then messing around with refilling a quiver

There is a theory that the arrow bags were specifically designed to be upended and stuck into the ground in mass.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,911

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johnathan: Those images intrigued me as well, and I just tracked them down!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150927354763402.430136.35622383401&type=1

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 08 Aug, 2013 9:01 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,911

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

now that those have finally loaded for me...holy cow, what a resource! Eek!

arms, armour, costume throughout Europe ca. 1529. As incredible as the Tudor images are, check out the Irish kerns on the last page. I've never seen such extremely detailed depiction of the Irish clothing, arms, armour and pipes. That javelin...!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well as you say Wikipedia WTF?! .

If there is a source it would be interesting. Obviously not all heads would fall off, but it is mentioned in sources, Sir John Smythe for one though I don't have the actual quote to hand Not all arrows were bodkins and heads used in war were of various types, As to shooting arrows back, you probably really wouldn't care if it had a point on if you were out of you own arrows. There is one source for example, I will find it it later that the arrow that killed Lord Clifford after the battle of Ferrybridge, hitting him in the throat, didn't have a point on it. We know that hunting arrows often had the heads pinned on from the finds. However the intention of a hunting arrow is in the hope of re-using it, The same can't be said for a war arrow.

One may choose to stick arrows in the ground, but whether in an arrow bag under the belt or a sheaf in a girdle knot, are no slower than taking them out of the ground with the added advantage that one doesn't have to spend time sticking them in the ground in the first place. If there is a written I would be happy to see it, however there is plenty of other evidence for arrows in and under belts and in arrow bags worn at the waist.

Best

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Guy Bayes




Location: United States
Joined: 07 Oct 2012

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the source i remember was related to the French complaining about the English poisoning their arrows

you do care if there is a point on it, arrow won't fly right without the point. Doesn't mean people would not shoot them without points, but does mean that points not falling off would be a desirable thing in general

the key advantage of sticking the arrows into the ground is you can do that before the battle rather then trying to refill a quiver during the battle. Unless you think that someone can have all 60+ arrows in a single quiver which would be problematic

A secondary advantage is that someone else could in theory be refilling you as you shot

Disadvantage would be mobility

Also would not work well on ships (-:

might seem minor but soldiers care about anything that gives them even a minor, perceived edge

Not saying you would never see arrows at the waist, it's certainly not an either-or.

My personal experience is that I shoot faster from a ground quiver then a belt quiver but then again I ahve not spent my whole life practicing either
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
W. Hawke




Location: Chicagoland
Joined: 07 Aug 2013

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: en re: arrowheads falling off         Reply with quote

Fixing an arrowhead to a shaft was done in a number of ways, though when an arrow is actually being loosed or in flight the movement of the mass guards against the point slipping away from the shaft. Removing the fixative from the arrow before loosing it would be done when the situation called for practicality before chivalry, as the arrows loosed thusly couldn't be returned by enemy archers by simply pulling them from the ground or the wounded and putting them on the string. This wouldn't do those stuck with the arrows any favors, as removing the arrowheads became rather more difficult. Having removed the fixative before the battle would also preclude the archers from sticking them point first into the ground, as leaving a row of buried arrowheads in front of your position does an archer no favors.
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes but the French complaining about it only tells us what they thought not what happened on the other side.

I didn't say you wouldn't care full stop, I said if you had run out of arrows and were picking up arrows to shoot back, you are already in desperate straits, so you are unlikely to be picky.

From the Mary Rose, and from pictorial evidence arrows seem to have been supplied bound near the points in sheaves. It would seem that the earlier arrows bags did no have spacers so it would be a simple action to undo the tie and drop the arrows in to the bag, but again the pictorial evidence shows arrows laying on the floor loose or next to arrow bags, it is also easy to put a sheaf of arrows in a girdle knot, certainly easier than sticking in the ground and still gives mobility. It is also easy to hand out bound sheaves of arrows in or out of bags.

Indeed all indications are that arrows bags were made to hold a sheaf of arrows, certainly the spacers on the Mary Rose have 24 holes in them, as do two of the examples in the MoL, though there is one there that has 30 holes. However there is no indication that the archers were issued with 60 plus arrows. All the indications from the records are that the numbers of arrows supplied in comparison to bows, strings etc mean that the average was between 1 1/2 to 2 sheaves per bow, for whole campaigns.

I agree that small things are important to military men, and not denying your personal experience, however from the extensive research that we have been undertaking over the last 40 + years, and we continue to find new things which is part fo the joy, the evidence shows that arrows at the waist are very common, whether in arrow bags, in girdle knots or under the girdle, also are arrows in bags on the floor or loose on the floor. I can think of no period source of arrows stuck in the ground. Also from practical experimentation, speaking personally all the sourced historical methods work and having the arrows on your person are as fast or fast than arrows away from the body. Luckily having the father that I do, I have been shooting since I could walk, Big Grin

we should also note that fixed battles were pretty rare, archers would spend most of their time moving and raiding and in smaller skirmish type actions, in these cases they would need to be able to easily carry their arrows, have access to them quickly at need yet also have them protected from the elements.

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
now that those have finally loaded for me...holy cow, what a resource! Eek!

arms, armour, costume throughout Europe ca. 1529. As incredible as the Tudor images are, check out the Irish kerns on the last page. I've never seen such extremely detailed depiction of the Irish clothing, arms, armour and pipes. That javelin...!


Great many thanks. It is always great to come across a new piece of information. Many thanks.
Best

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 07 Aug, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Johnathan: Those images intrigued me as well, and I just tracked them down!

http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/view...ePid2=true


Sean I keep getting a time out page when I use the link. Do you have another link? or the title of the book so I can serach for it on the main part of the site?

Cheers

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,911

PostPosted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah...the whole URL won't post properly. Well, I've changed that URL to the Facebook page that has the link to the full set.

The MS is the Códice de trajes

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jonathan Waller




Location: London
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean,
Many thanks, yes it really is a great resource!
Cheers
JW

Above all, honour
Jonathan Waller
Secretary, EHCG
secretary@ehcg.net
www.ehcg.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Quivers, Arrow Bags, and the Like...
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum