[M. Eversberg II]

Hi again!

I remember reading somewhere (possibly here) years ago that it was normal in England for those of higher feudal ranks (who held more and more valuable lands to reflect their rank) to hold lands that were rather far apart. It appears they spent considerable amounts of time travelling from one holding to another, with some kind of steward to run it when they were gone. I belive the original question was related to the number of hides required to make one a thegn in Pre-Invasion times, and how one acquires more land if your neighbors have what borders you.

I assume this was also the norm on the continent? More to the point, I'm running a table top game and for believability I'm having one non-player character, who is a Count / Graff in a region somewhat similar to the Holy Roman Empire have his lands distributed in a realistic fashion.

Just how spread out can these feudal holdings get? Dozens or hundreds of miles? Scattered across an entire realm? Or generally within a small area?

Especially when someone becomes something like a Count, which implies they hold some kind of County, which in turn implies it's rather contiguous. Not sure if I worded all this well.

Thanks,

M.

[Kurt Scholz]

Look at a map from the Wars of the Roses to answer that question.

[Elnathan Barnett]

Going off the top of my head:

Depends on the time and place. During the Merovingian and Carolingian periods, I believe that it was common among the Franks and their subject peoples for lands to be granted scattered in several different regions - after the breakup of Charlemagne's empire, many nobles held land in more than one kingdom. This was a problem for the monarchs insofar as it encouraged nobles to play different monarchs off against each other and meant that nobles were less likely to throw their support unequivocally behind one monarch if their lands in another kingdom could be confiscated, but it did have the advantage that lords were less able to stage revolts in their own right. In Germany, during the Ottonian and later eras, it was precisely the ability of the great lords to build up regional powerbases, and therefore have a kind of miniature kindom within the empire from which to resist imperial authority, that kept the Holy Roman Emperors from being as powerful as their titles might suggest.

If you are trying to emulate the HRE, then I suggest that most of the Graff's lands be in a fairly small area, though not necessarily always adjacent.

Other post Carolingian nations I am not sure about, though I believe that the French and Low Countries tended to also have regional lordships. The 15th century Burgundian Dukes did end up with some widely scattered territories, though, one of the reasons why Charles the Bold was ultimately unable to prevail against the French king.
http://asteriamusica.com/blog/Asteria_in_Euro...0final.png

[Robin Smith]

http://domesdaymap.co.uk/

Look through the site at some of the larger Land Holders (in the Names Section) and you'll get an idea

For example, here the holdings of CountRobert of Mortain
http://domesdaymap.co.uk/name/450800/count-robert-of-mortain/
Of course he is the second largest land holder post Conquest, but its all over southwest England


And the holding of a mid-sized land holder, Drogo of Montacute
http://domesdaymap.co.uk/name/151500/drogo-of-montacute/
As you see, they are scattered but all still in Somerset and Devon

[Daniel Wallace]

there was a book a read some time back can't remember the source, where a knight was not directly tied to their king, but by oaths among lords. and their 'service' in the field was very complicated. one lord may acquire a knight for so many months of the year and have responsibilities in his area of the country, while another could have the knight would have his service for the remainder of the year elsewhere in the country. what got even more complicated (by the mention of the book i'm unsure if this was true of not) was if a paretical lord or king began a war, some treaties between kingdoms would push this knight into the service of another country altogether (and win possible rewards from the other king one not from his own country.)

[M. Eversberg II]

Is it known as to wether you can recend properties granted if, for example, they are rather isolated? I figure if you inherit them you'll be able to simply not pay the release.

Robin, thanks for that link, it's pretty useful. Crazy how spread out one man's holdings can be, even within the same region. I am guessing one place will be his regional headquarters, but that's my modern business management training coming into play.

So large clumps of holdings spaced out over a hundred or more miles would not be unusual, then?

Also, tangentally related question. Looked up English Baronies and noted that they appear to be very important, and large, holdings, wherein much of the subdivision of land begins. However, it appears of if the title "Baron" is rather low on the list of peerage, and that not always does a Barony belong to a Baron. Any places I could further my understanding on that?

M.

[Craig Peters]

[Lafayette C Curtis]