[Luka Borscak]

It's this quote:
"Another Italian, Paolo Giovio, describes the critical moment in the battle of Fornovo, 1495, where Charles VIII of France with his Swiss mercenaries was opposed by Francesco Gonzaga at the head of an imperial army: "Suddenly, as the *sc. The Italian pikemen, javelin-throwers and crossbowmen) began to approach, about 300 picked young men who are called "the forlorn hope" issued forth from each flank of the infantry body and with their great swords which they wielded with both hands began to chop up those enormous pikes with such boldness that nearly all those pikemen, aghast, turned their backs in flight without waiting for the main body of the infantry to come up." "

The Origins of the Two-Handed Sword
Journal of Western Martial Art
January 2000
by Neil H. T. Melville

[Neil Melville]

It's pleasing to see that my article is still being read and quoted, though it was several years old when it was re-published in JWMA, and I have refined and developed my ideas since then. Paolo Giovio could not have been an eye-witness of Fornovo (1495), being only a boy at the time, but he does devote a good few pages to his description of the battle, so he must have had plenty of informants. His work was published in 1566 (but possibly written much earlier). Here is his original text, in Latin, of the relevant passage and my revised translation:

Extemplo namque ubi appropinquatus est extraordinarii delecti iuvenes ferme trecenti, qui propter laudem summo quaesitam periculo vitae prodigi perditique vocantur, ab utroque phalangis latere prosilierunt , ac ingentibus gladiis quos ambabus manibus regebant enormesque hastas praecidere coeperunt. Quorum audacia territi pene omnes, priusquam phalangis impressionem expectarent, terga verterunt.

Suddenly indeed when they had come close about 300 young men, the elite, who through the praise that is gained associated with great danger, are called 'careless of life' and 'given up for lost' (in English 'the forlorn hope') issued from each side of the phalanx and with their huge swords which they wielded with both hands began to cut down the enormous pikes. Astounded by their boldness almost all the pikemen turned tail without waiting for the mass of the regiment to reach them.

Hope this is of interest,
Neil

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

I suspect our unwillingness to believe that swordsmen could cut pikes reflects both our relative lack of skill and penchant for using excessively thick pikes. The kind of acrobatics Silver and Meyer recommended make the notion of monster pikes untenable. Pike thickness of course varied, but Silver and Meyer wrote about what they considered the battlefield weapon. Thinner pikes, especially if tapered, would have been easier to cut.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

The principle tactical use of the larger two-handed swords by the late 15th Century seems to have been specifically for the smaller formations like forlorn hopes and so on, and to defend standards and artillery, groups of gunners and crossbowmen, and artillery, and as bodyguards for VIP's.

The Iberian 'montante' manuals and some of the Italian fencing manuals recommend using the large sword for situations when 'few must fight against many', both on the battlefield and in urban environs. This seems to be the role that the weapon excelled in (and a role for which the halberd was also used). As many have noted, a lot of the pikemen particularly among the Swiss used to carry longswords for sidearms, for the period when the pike square (or part of it) disintegrates. The specific (and important) niche for this weapons seems to be to help exploit / or defend against the chaos of the middle and later parts of a battle.

I'm not about to argue that swords couldn't cut pikes (I suspect they can- some images from Marozzo even make it look like it may have been common to practice doing so during fencing training) but I don't think it was a principle use of the two-handed sword to directly attack intact pike-squares, unlike say, the rotolero with their swords and rotella. I've seen some antique pikes from Switzerland (Berne? I think?) and was interested to note that they had langets on them, like a lot of the smaller Medieval and Early Modern polearms did. It would be hard to cut through those!

J

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[Steve Hick]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Thanks Steve, that's interesting.


J

[Matthew P. Adams]

I've done some spear vs spadone bouting, and once you meet at the crossing, you push the spear head off line, slide the blade down the shaft and lop off fingers. i would love to try spadone against many, but my trainer is a PH synthetic, and its inappropriate for full speed hits with the large circular movements. too heavy and ridged to be safe. I would love to try one of the Arms and Armor Spadone trainers.

[Steve Hick]

[Matthew P. Adams]

Well, that's disappointing but understandable. I guess it's near impossible to make a realistic six foot impact weapon safe without some fairly extensive armor.

[Daniel Staberg]

[Luka Borscak]

I found several pictures of Swiss, Germans and one picture of Swedes and Frisians using two handers in battles in Chronicon Helvetiae (Aarau, Aargauer Kantonsbibliothek, MsWettF 16: 1: Silbereisen: Chronicon Helvetiae, Part I (http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/list/one/kba/0016-1) ), enjoy :

http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/143/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/196/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/212/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/215/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/236/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/350/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/826/x-large
http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/kba/0016-1/871/x-large

[Daniel Staberg]

[Roger Norling]

Here's a bit I wrote about this chronicle some time ago. Probably needs some revision now.

http://www.hroarr.com/chronicon-helvetiae/

[Luka Borscak]

[Luka Borscak]