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Alex Yeoh
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 Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 11:06 am Post subject: how do sword makers keep rust off the tang? |
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do they oil it? nickel plate it? do nothing?
if they do nothing - why do they do nothing?
thanks.
"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 11:34 am Post subject: |
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They do nothing. After several hundred years it might get to be a problem but during the expected working life of a sword I doubt it would be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't authentication of Japanese swords even based on the rust on the tang to some extent?
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Patina is often used to at least get a guess at age and authenticity. It would take many years to worry in the normal life of a sword about rusting of the tang. However, I would guess that ancient adhesives were probably used as sealers much like they are by makers today. (I've been using epoxy to try to get an air tight seal on the tang. Whether it will work for years or not, is anybody's guess. I do feel better for doing it, though...)
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting... who uses sealers Scott? Al Massey and Jacob Powning come to mind upon reflection. However, to my knowledge Arms and Armor, Del Tin, Angus Trim and Albion don't do much of anything... Perhaps folks from those outfits can correct me if I'm wrong?
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Interesting... who uses sealers Scott? Al Massey and Jacob Powning come to mind upon reflection. However, to my knowledge Arms and Armor, Del Tin, Angus Trim and Albion don't do much of anything... Perhaps folks from those outfits can correct me if I'm wrong? |
Albion epoxies their grip cores into place. Would the epoxy itself act as any kind of barrier? Tinker used to (and may still) use silver solder on his guards to fill in gaps where moisture might get under the handle.
Most makers, though, don't do anything. My understanding is that at a certain point, oxidization can form a protective layer against further oxidization. I believe some forms of blueing, blackening, and browning (russeting) are controlled oxidizations.
Also, grips seem to have been replaced fairly frequently during a sword's useable life (and often afterward). Perhaps tangs were examined and cleaned when grips were replaced. This, or course, is pure speculation.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott Byler wrote: | | Patina is often used to at least get a guess at age and authenticity. It would take many years to worry in the normal life of a sword about rusting of the tang. However, I would guess that ancient adhesives were probably used as sealers much like they are by makers today. (I've been using epoxy to try to get an air tight seal on the tang. Whether it will work for years or not, is anybody's guess. I do feel better for doing it, though...) |
What was cutler's pitch? I recall it being mentioned previously and it sounds like it might be relevant to the question.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I personally don't worry about a little oxidation on the tang. 5160 picks up a patina easily, but normally doesn't pit. The oxidation doesn't hurt anything and may add some extra protection.
swords are fun
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Alex Yeoh
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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very interesting! Thanks all. I guess it makes sense. The steel in leaf springs for car shocks show rust, and yet they seem to last quite a number of years in wet, salty and muddy conditions.
"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | | Scott Byler wrote: | | Patina is often used to at least get a guess at age and authenticity. It would take many years to worry in the normal life of a sword about rusting of the tang. However, I would guess that ancient adhesives were probably used as sealers much like they are by makers today. (I've been using epoxy to try to get an air tight seal on the tang. Whether it will work for years or not, is anybody's guess. I do feel better for doing it, though...) |
What was cutler's pitch? I recall it being mentioned previously and it sounds like it might be relevant to the question. |
Geoff, as far as I know (and I'm not versed in most of the cutler resins used in the past) there were a variety of formulas for the stuff in various parts of the world and at different times. Whether it was used purely as adhesive or as a bit of moisture protection is purely speculative (for myself, as I don't know. Maybe someone may have more insight into that, hopefully.)
I know one custom knife maker working now uses a pinon rosin to seal and fill his blade hilts. Seems to work well for him...
I'm like Gus in that I don't worry so much about rust per se, on the tang. I like the idea of sealing out moisture, ofcourse, but find I use epoxy to fill and solidify the little areas inside the handle material to get a good tight fit.
I took the old stacked leather hilt off of my Kris Cutlery barbarian sword purchased a decade or so back and found that while it had rusted it was negligible. And that was with the unsealed looking leather in direct contact with the steel for years....
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW the Japanese sword world doesn't worry about it. As Russ already mentioned it is sometimes an appraisal point (determining age, composition, etc.). And frankly it isn't much of a problem if you're thinking evil red rust. The nakago (tang) of a Japanese sword is either in a friction fit wood tsuka (handle) or mounting in a similarly friction fit wood shirasaya (storage scabbard). And when you handle or inspect a well polished blade outside of the mounts the tang is the only part of the blade you handle. Skin oils get on, air gets on, etc. But since it's stored in a relatively air free environment in a steel friendly wood (non acidic) the steel tends to develop a very stable, slow forming patina. In other words active red, fast growing rust never forms only a slow forming and very stable patine. This protects the nakago over time. I've held a number of blades now over 800 years old with nakago that are still in fantastic shape. They were of course meticulously cared for, but that really means stored properly.
Just fwiw.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Alex Yeoh
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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800 years old? That is simply amazing. Thanks.
"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 10 Nov, 2004 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Most makers, though, don't do anything. My understanding is that at a certain point, oxidization can form a protective layer against further oxidization. I believe some forms of blueing, blackening, and browning (russeting) are controlled oxidizations.
That's exactly right... just think about all the people with rusty swords out there...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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This is a standard topic