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Robert S. Haile





Joined: 16 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Maille oddity on German Effigy c. 1370         Reply with quote

While adapting my kit to the late 1380's or 1390's and doing research on numerous effigies I came across a particular german effigy of the 1370's that showed a rather odd maille arrangement. As you can see, the maille from the arms runs vertically (already an oddity) and you can see as it runs into the torso it does a U-turn of sorts and runs vertically down the body. What do you folks chalk this up to? An incompetent artist or something else? I'm not entirely sure what to make of it myself. His aventail runs properly...



Last edited by Robert S. Haile on Sun 29 Apr, 2012 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on both effigies and surviving pieces, it's clear mail was made and worn almost any way you can think of.
There really was no wrong or right way.
Some effigies show the mail horizontal throughout, while others show the mail on the torso hanging vertically.
Many surviving haubergeons (mainly 15thC and later) have it horizontal on the body, and vertical on the arms.
(I don't buy the argument that sculptors of effigies weren't familiar with the armour they were depicting.)
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D. Phillip Caron




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There seems something not right with the armor pictured. The decorative elements coming down from the shoulders would, not being hinged, appear to make it all but impossible to move the arms.
The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Phillip Caron wrote:
The decorative elements coming down from the shoulders would, not being hinged, appear to make it all but impossible to move the arms.


No need to hinge cloth or leather?

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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D. Phillip Caron




Location: Arcadia, FL
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is that armor not metal?
The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It certainly seems to me like cloth/leather surcoat thing, not armor.

Perhaps some coat of plates, but there's no sign of rivets or other fastening anywhere.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is this effigy Medieval for certain? Something about the face does not look quite right to me but there are some other aspects that seem to be 18th- 19th century to me.

Jojo,

Do you know of any remaining western mail that shows this was done in this way? Almost all the mail pieces I have ever seen runs just like is often assumed. What examples are you thinking of in your post above? I'd love to see them. I just looked at all the photos I have of the RA, Wallace, BM and Royal Museum of Scotland to double check and none of the mail I saw fit anything other than the norm.

I know there is artwork showing other set ups but I am not always sure artwork is better as an answer than remaining pieces for this type of question.

RPM
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Robert S. Haile





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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey folks,

The effigy was originally found via the effigies and brasses search engine. Here is a source page for other pictures of this monument on the aforementioned site http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/gottf..._arnsberg/ .

The man seen here is Gottfried IV Von Arnsberg. The monument in question is found at the Cologne cathedral, Kölner Dom. A brief search doesn't yield any suspicion that it was of later construction, though that isn't impossible of course.

To put my two cents in concerning the adornment on his shoulders, drawing from what I've seen on numerous of brasses and effigies, that is simply a woolen (or less likely, leather) surcoat worn over a breastplate. It's an extremely common form of surcoat found on many french knights during the late 14th century.

Also, a fuller view of the effigy, found in the link above, shows his maille skirt to run horizontally, indicating either a seperate skirt, or a curious misunderstanding of maille by the author of the statue (which I don't find very likely).
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D. Phillip Caron




Location: Arcadia, FL
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It appears that the right arm is longer than the left, at least, to the elbow. Perhaps done by an artist in a real rush which would demand "some" interpetation.
The caption states 1371, Germany.

The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Robert S. Haile





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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://dijonclub.narod.ru/research/papers/common1370-1-big.jpg

Here is another German effigy, this time of Rudolf von Sachsenhausen, from around the same time, also featuring maille that runs vertically on the arms.
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Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Is this effigy Medieval for certain? Something about the face does not look quite right to me but there are some other aspects that seem to be 18th- 19th century to me.

Jojo,

Do you know of any remaining western mail that shows this was done in this way? Almost all the mail pieces I have ever seen runs just like is often assumed. What examples are you thinking of in your post above? I'd love to see them. I just looked at all the photos I have of the RA, Wallace, BM and Royal Museum of Scotland to double check and none of the mail I saw fit anything other than the norm.

I know there is artwork showing other set ups but I am not always sure artwork is better as an answer than remaining pieces for this type of question.

RPM


When I said horizontal on the torso and vertical on the arms, I was referring to the simple construction style seen on most modern hauberks.
Many 14th century effigies seem to show various construction methods. There's good evidence that older mail was made by expanding a circle and working down, which would make all the parts hang the same way. This method seems to have survived into the 14th century.
(Most surviving mail shirts date from after the 14th century.)
These are some good effigy examples of horizontal mail on the arms.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1615...468647900/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/miles.../13/large/
(notice the arms join in even to the body, suggesting expansion construction.)
And here is a haubergeon that hangs vertical (open) in both the arms and body.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/rober...349/large/
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This issue is not with the sleeves. These are the standard set up for mail both in art and those that remain from the medieval period. The issue I am having is the body. Both in function and creation it seems like an 'off' idea. With the body the way most hauberks and habergeons are made its works quite well. With this set up you would have somewhere between 4-8 extra seams. As well I am not sure of any remaining mail hauberks that the torso runs this way. I have seen some people make hauberks in this fashion (usually by accident and by the time they learned it was wrong they were too far along to fix it) did not function or move nearly as well as the standard system we see in period.

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mail29.jpg

The face is what makes me wonder about this effigy though, more than the odd mail on the torso.

Not saying it could not have been only if it were it was a minority of the mail weaves in use. And truth is many things that are made are not useful.

http://www.orientaltrading.com/ui/browse/proc..._sku=5/580


http://www.instructables.com/id/Fnork-20/

Jojo,

I was not saying some mail was very detailed and constructed with many parts, many of the nicer ones have very 'fit' shapes that require these. That said they usually still fit the standard weave directions.

RPM
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Lee Morrison





Joined: 03 Nov 2015

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Nov, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at the distortion of the rings around the face (almost as if the "fabric" of the mail had been cut away to expose the face) I am tempted to believe that artistic license allowed for the "suggestion" of mail rather than an accurate depiction of the armor.
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