USMC officer Mameluke -- myArmoury.com

Joe Yurgil · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: USMC officer Mameluke

I asked this question over on SFI but did get a great response sooooo..... I'll ask here, does anyone know of a company (or smith) that does or could make a functional mameluke sword? The reason I ask it that I'm joining the Corps and i would rather have a real sword than a show piece (I'm sure you all understand). I've searched the net for companies but I have been unsuccesful and if i had to go fully custom I wouldn't know which smith to go to. Can anyone help me out?

Thanks in advance. Happy

Brian M · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 10:23 am Post subject:

IMPO, the level of engraving and decoration which would go into a "functional" custom Marine-issue sword would make the price astronomically expensive. Perhaps Thomas MacDonald in here can give you an idea what that kind of work would cost. Not to mention a very long wait time.
You could probably commission a plain version of that kind of sword for a reasonable amount of money (circa $1500-2000?) but the key requirement is "must meet regulations for wear in uniform." I don't think they'd let you wear a plain custom (functional) sword that looks different from the highly decorated regulation (but non-functional) swords.
One thing you might consider is approaching this idea from a "MWR" (Morale, Welfare, and Recreation) standpoint. For example, talk to your MWR office about putting together a kit that would be appropriate to a Marine officer circa 1826. Including uniform, rifle (musket?) and sword. You might be allowed to wear the kit for historical presentation and education purposes, and you might even get some financial help putting it together.
The members of the base Honor Guard might be some people to talk to as well, about how to get something like that done.
Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Brian M

David R. Glier · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 10:39 am Post subject:

Electro etching is not difficult.

If you have to (ie: you can't find an artist good enough to re-create the design by hand), you can scan the design on your blade into a computer, isolate the design from the metal background, and print transparencies in negative.
Then go to radio shack, buy some photo-activated circuit boart etchant-resist, then paint your blade with it. Set the transparencies of the design on the blade, !!ALIGN them properly!! and set it out in the sun for a few hours.

You now have a blade with a perfectly patterened resist. Stick it in a brine tank with a big piece of copper and hook up the battery charger, and away you go.
You see, I've thought about this for quite some time. When I comission I plan on doing EXACTLY that. Big Grin

Only problem is that damned metal scabbard. Talk about a blade-killer. Maybe I can put in a Hi-D polyurithane insert on the blade-side before I braze it together. Worried

I've had mighty good results with electro-etching. Good stuff -cleaner than acid, easier to make and use, and you don't get any noticable undercutting even on very deep etches.

Also, you don't NEED to have the whole sword made. For my own part, I'm thinking of buying an issue-sword with good hilt-components and dissasemble it for parts -the brass cross-piece, especialy. Having a funtional bare blade made to spec or near-spec would be much less expensive, and easier on the bladesmith I'm thinking.

Nate C. · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 11:22 am Post subject:

You might try one of the companies that make the sword. they might be willing to make one with a custom Carbon Steel blade instead of stainless steel. here are a couple links I found.

Wilkinson Swords
Imperial Swords

Hope this helps.

Brian M · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 11:28 am Post subject:

We should clarify -- is the sword an officer's or a noncommissioned officer's sword? The NCO's sword has a much more elaborate hilt.
http://www.modelshipbuilding.com/swords/marinencosword.jpg
http://www.modelshipbuilding.com/swords/marineswordoff.jpg
Outside of the blade etching, the Officer's sword doesn't look too difficult.

Brian M

Joe Yurgil · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 12:37 pm Post subject:

I have thought about contacting companies about getting a real blade to retrofit a regular hilt. I did in fact call one company up but they told me that they wouldnt do it "because the climate in the US is not condusive to carbon steel blades since they would easily rust" Confused

. I guess I should just get on the horn with a few more places and ask around. I would be alright with going fully custom to a point; second lieutenants don't earn that much really.

Nate- thanks for the links Happy

Brian- I'm talking about the officer sword, and no, the hilt really isn't too elaborate
Dave- thanks for the pointers but I would hate to try that, f it up, and end up with a ruined sword, seeing as im not really that adept with technology for the most part. Idea

Brian M · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 1:57 pm Post subject:

Perhaps you could contact some of the better smiths and ask them for ideas about how best to proceed and a rough idea of cost? For example, would it be better to buy a standard sword and reuse the fittings with a new blade, or just buy the standard sword for the smith to use as a model? I'd probably have the smith etch the blade, because if I spent a lot of money on a custom blade I would not feel comfortable learning to electro-etch on it.

Regards,
Brian M

Nate C. · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 8:43 pm Post subject:

Hello all,

Just a couple of quick comments.

Joe- You're welcome. Given the locations of both companies, I'd be surprised if they gave you the "US climate" excuse. I would think the UK is just as damp etc. as anywhere over here. And they use carbon steel for their officer's swords. BTW if you notice on Wilkinson's site, the British pattern general officer's sword and the US Marine Officer's are nearly identical. I would be very surprised if they can't work with you.

David- Would you be willing to elaborate on the method of etching you are talking about? I'm guessing I'm not the only one that is intrigued by what you've said so far. Maybe in a separate thread (or even an article Nathan?) since a lot of people here are into modifying their equipment.

What materials are used for making the hilt components? I haven't seen a Marine Officer's sword, but I have seen a Navy Officer's sword and to be honest, I wasn't that impressed. Classic wallhanger it seemed to me (i.e. stainless blade, cast guard, and really phony looking "rayskin" that looked like molded plastic.) I may be off base here, but a custom might be more satisfying Big Grin

(and expensive Worried

) than a regular model with a carbon blade.

Also, anybody know why the Marines chose a eastern looking blade for their officer's sword?

Cheers,

[edit: added new info][/url]

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject:

"Also, anybody know why the Marines chose a eastern looking blade for their officer's sword? "

During the war against the Barbary pirates a sword of this pattern was presented to the Lieutenant who led the landing at Tripoli (.....shores of Tripoli, as in the USMC hymn). The pattern then became the standard for Officers dress.

Before I invested a lot of money in a custom sword I'd make sure that I was allowed to carry it. It may very well be against uniform regulations.

Brian M · Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 11:47 pm Post subject:

Yeah, unfortunately our Service swords tend to go overboard in the "chintzy" department. I propose the following changes to issue swords:
1) Army: Type-XII like the Knight or perhaps a Falchion like the Vassal
2) Air Force: Type-XV or XVIII like the Poitiers or Kingmaker
3) Navy: The Model 1917 US Naval Cutlass
4) Marines: A basket-hilted broadsword. That would be the SHIZNIT with the Marine dress uniform. Ditch the Mameluke.
5) Coast Guard: A Figure-8 Cutlass.

Brian M

Joe Yurgil · Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2004 8:29 am Post subject:

hmm, you may have a point there Patrick. I'll have to check up on that.

It would be neat to have a basket hilted sword for the uniform but like Ptrick pointed out, there is a reason for using the mameluke design and I always like traditions like that. buuut, im a bit of an anachronism Wink

David R. Glier · Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject:

I've seen officer's swords with carved, fillagreed hilts, so I doubt the regs won't let you carry a functional sword as long as it conforms to spec.

My issue has always been the width of the blade. That's a VERY narrow blade, very straight blade -not much good for cutting. I'm hoping I can slip a broader, more cuved blade past possibly dissaproving eyes. Wink

RE: Electro-Etching. All you need is a large container, water, salt (of any kind. Ferric Cloride gives best/fastest results (least resistance, I believe), but good old NaCl is what I use) an electrode (ie: large piece of copper, or in one case a guy used a automotive headlight) and either a car battery or a car battery charger.
It's stupidly simple. MUCH more simple than acid etching. So simple that I have no idea why anybody uses acid etching anymore, except for bringing out hamon and weld patterns. And half of the beauty of it is that all you have to do is flip the polarity (switch the leads) and you start electro-plating and fill in the holes you just made with the metal of your choice! It works on steel, stainless steel, copper, brass, bronze... probably all conductive metals, which would include silver and gold. Big Grin

Check out this thread on the ArmourArchive for details: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9109
(I don't think it's possible to be banned from the Archive... so that's not an issue, right?)

Joe Yurgil · Posted: Tue 02 Nov, 2004 1:45 pm Post subject:

Well I checked the regs and there is nothing requiring the sword to be non functional at all at all. Its pretty genreal actually. At the same time, the various companies that make the Mameluke I have heard back from don't offer a functional version of the sword unfortunatly. I'll have to try some of the custom smiths out there and see where that leads.

Thanks all. Happy

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2004 8:41 am Post subject:

Have you thought about buying an antique Marine mameluke sword? They might not be much more functional, but they wouldn't be stainless steel and the craftsmanship would most likely be worlds beyond a new one. Although uniform regs might not prohibit wearing an antique, the weapon would likely have to be in either restored or near-mint condition, which could present a problem. It may be that you could find a very fine antique Marine sword for less than you could commission a new one.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2004 8:50 am Post subject:

Although I was thinking more about a ca. 1900 sword, you might be interested in this Ebay auction of a 1960s Marine mameluke. It at least LOOKS to better made than a new one. I guess you could have the name polished out. Price seems very reasonable, but there's only one day left in the auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...3&rd=1

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2004 8:53 am Post subject:

Now, THIS is more like it, Joe! That 1812 model Marine mameluke is $750!!!

http://www.confederateordinance.com/knivesandswords.html

Joe Yurgil · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject:

Now thats what im talking about!! Big Grin

I'll have to see if that is ok with the regs and what not but boy o boy that looks nice.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 03 Nov, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject:

You could research the scabbard and have one made without too much fuss, probably.

Tom Wegener · Posted: Thu 04 Nov, 2004 4:09 am Post subject:

Joe, one thing as an old corporal I can tell you . You will have to store your sword at the armory if you put a functional blade on it . Regs state that no Marine can store a weapon in his or her billet , and if you do put a good blade on it you will be in that catagory .

The worst thing I can say now is your sword will NOT get good attention in the armory . The rifles and handguns we use are always kept in top condition , but the swords are more often just tossed in the corner . I can tell you this from experience . I made the mistake of buying my own NCO sword and it was ruined within 2 years . The hilt looked like it had been run over by a tank . The base ( ie. the drawn weapons ) swords were kept in much better conditions than personal ones .

My sugestion is to WAIT till you make Captain or are about to get out of the Corps befor you purcase one , by that time you will know the exact leanght of the blade you will need and have an off base apartment or house . Once you can afford off base living you can then keep things like your sword's and personal weapons in your home .

Again , to emphasize , YOU WILL HAVE TO TURN IT INTO THE ARMORY if you buy your own , not something I would recomend with a nice sword .

David R. Glier · Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 8:26 am Post subject:

With off-base housing being like it is, that shouldn't be too much of an issue... I had friends with their own houses when they were still butterbars. Confused

I guess it depends on where you put your money.

Joe, would you mind pointing out the specific regs in question?