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Danny Grigg
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 Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 3:13 am Post subject: Vollgriffschwert & Griffzungenschwert |
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Can anyone post pictures of accurate replica / reconstructions of the Vollgriffschwert & Griffzungenschwert bronze swords or provide links / URLs?
The following link has a very nice looking Vollgriffschwert however its only a picture of the hilt and part of the blade. Does anyone have a picture showing the entire sword or a link to a picture showing the full sword?
http://www.schwertkunst.de/Schwert-Links/Li_B...eswig.html
Can anyone provide me some basic details about the Vollgriffschwert & Griffzungenschwert? Are they both Celtic swords? What timeframe in history were they used? What's an accurate translation from German to English of the name of the 2 swords?
Thanks
Danny
Sydney Australia
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 7:28 am Post subject: |
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That certainly is a nice looking replica on the right.[/img]
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Cool........this is a new one for me. And I thought I'd seen 'em all. I know that Kris Cutlery offers a reproduction Celtic sword with a very similar guard and pommel, being the C-shaped or 'moon' guard and the flat disc-pommel. The blade in the website link you posted is bronze and appears to be straight-sided, whereas the Kris version is steel and leaf-shaped. Other than that, very similar all around. The Kris Cutlery line is very well made, with thick tangs and quality steel blades. There are some cheaper, decorative models sold by other companies also. But, if you want a quality replica, I would go with Kris. Hope this helps. MCM.
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, since nobody else has tried yet, and based on very literal translations (so probably wrong), griff is grip or handle, voll is (sometimes) full, so 'full grip sword'.
As for the other one zungen can be tongue, so 'grip tongue sword?!'. Tongue and tang have a similar root, so maybe this is a reference to the tang.
I feel sure that one of the German speaking members can improve on this attempt.
Geoff
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Geoff Wood wrote: | Well, since nobody else has tried yet, and based on very literal translations (so probably wrong), griff is grip or handle, voll is (sometimes) full, so 'full grip sword'.
As for the other one zungen can be tongue, so 'grip tongue sword?!'. Tongue and tang have a similar root, so maybe this is a reference to the tang.
I feel sure that one of the German speaking members can improve on this attempt.
Geoff |
You are pretty much spot on, Geoff.
My sword site
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Thomas Jason
Location: New Joisey Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Wed 27 Oct, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think both blades in the picture are replicas.
The one on the left appears to aged.
The blades look too similar for the one on the right to be a cast replica of the one on hte left.
Rather I's imagine they both came from the same mold.
I could be wrong though. If so, the person who did the replica is amazing.
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone know what culture this sword is from? It is absolutely gorgeous but (to me) doesn't seem very representative of the Urnfield era. Could it be a hybrid Mediterranean/Urnfield sword? Again, my knowledge base is limited, but while there are some Northern/Central European elements to it, it looks... different somehow.
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | | Does anyone know what culture this sword is from? It is absolutely gorgeous but (to me) doesn't seem very representative of the Urnfield era. Could it be a hybrid Mediterranean/Urnfield sword? Again, my knowledge base is limited, but while there are some Northern/Central European elements to it, it looks... different somehow. |
Hi David...
I had the same thought. The grips always seem to have transverse elements running around the grip not longitudinal panels. However I did find another with this feature so evidently they did exist... if not very common (but very beautiful IMO).
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Silly thought, but those grips wouldn't look out of place on a light sabre.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Geoff;
I agree very Star Wars or maybe 1920s' Art Deco.
These would make a very interesting Albion "Bronze Age" addition to their line, even more if the edges were work hardened for full period usability.
Maybe a historical line bronze sword. (Then the price could be high enough to make it without any compromises!)
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kirk,
Thank you very much-- nice to know my "feeling" was not too off base, even if I couldn't put my finger on the reason for it. Now that you mention it, it was the pannels that threw me. I love them, I'm just not used to seeing them. Do you have a provenance for the piece you posted?
Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Quote: | ...or maybe 1920s' Art Deco.
These would make a very interesting Albion "Bronze Age" addition to their line, even more if the edges were work hardened for full period usability.
Maybe a historical line bronze sword. (Then the price could be high enough to make it without any compromises!) |
It really does have an Art Deco look-- and as for the Albion suggestion... I'll add my "Amen"!  I've never seen a bronze piece I have liked quite so much-- in fact it would have to be "up there" with my favourite swords in general.
David
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Beautifull reconstruction(-s)!
The type is Scandinavian (or possible north German)
These swords are found in Denmark and Sweden and are quite stunning.
I am collecting data on BA swords and am also conducting some practical experiments.
There is defenitly interest from Albion to add bronze age to the repetoir. It is juts a matter of time and funds.
Auhtenticity in materials and production is a problem with bronze swords.
Bronze was a very varied mix and sometimes had some interesting alloying elements, like arsenic...
The cold working of bronze edges is very laborious. If you compress too much at the same time (as with a modern pres) you could easily fracture the material.
You do not want to remove too much excess material afterwards either (trimming down the shape by grinding or filing) as that will defeat some of the surface hardening effect.
The best solution I have found so far is going slowly by hand with a small hammer and use the "hardening" process to do the final shaping of the blade.
You want to compress the edge some 75% to reach a desired hardness.
You need to use a well polished hammer so there are no deep dents or dimples you need to file away. No ball peen hammer, rather something close to a silversmiths planishing hammer.
All this demanding and time consuming handwork would make a bronze blade come close to a hand forged custom blade in price. That is not an option for a production setting, I think.
Using a modern bronze alloy that has less need of cold working is one solution.
I know that this might offend the feel of autenticity, but is not so different from using a contemporary carbon or tool steel from medieval style swords that are heat treat with salt pots. we are used to that "compromize" but want soemthing else with bronze. Difficult equaltion that...
I don´t know. The jury is still out on that one.
Again, I´d like to say: Beautifull swords!!!
I want one!
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Thu 28 Oct, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | Hi Kirk,
Thank you very much-- nice to know my "feeling" was not too off base, even if I couldn't put my finger on the reason for it. Now that you mention it, it was the pannels that threw me. I love them, I'm just not used to seeing them. Do you have a provenance for the piece you posted?
David |
Hi David...
Sorry, no provenance on the sword posted... Peter J. said Scandinavia... and word from both a researcher and native is certainly good enough for me.
I found another pic from Jeroen's museum webpage with a couple more of this type...
http://1500bc.com/index2.html
Because the three I have found with longitudinal plates are all daggers, it may be that the beautiful couple that started this thread may also be dagger length... since we can not see the full blade.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Fri 29 Oct, 2004 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | Beautifull reconstruction(-s)!
The type is Scandinavian (or possible north German)
These swords are found in Denmark and Sweden and are quite stunning.
I am collecting data on BA swords and am also conducting some practical experiments.
There is defenitly interest from Albion to add bronze age to the repetoir. It is juts a matter of time and funds.
Auhtenticity in materials and production is a problem with bronze swords.
Bronze was a very varied mix and sometimes had some interesting alloying elements, like arsenic...
The cold working of bronze edges is very laborious. If you compress too much at the same time (as with a modern pres) you could easily fracture the material.
You do not want to remove too much excess material afterwards either (trimming down the shape by grinding or filing) as that will defeat some of the surface hardening effect.
The best solution I have found so far is going slowly by hand with a small hammer and use the "hardening" process to do the final shaping of the blade.
You want to compress the edge some 75% to reach a desired hardness.
You need to use a well polished hammer so there are no deep dents or dimples you need to file away. No ball peen hammer, rather something close to a silversmiths planishing hammer.
All this demanding and time consuming handwork would make a bronze blade come close to a hand forged custom blade in price. That is not an option for a production setting, I think.
Using a modern bronze alloy that has less need of cold working is one solution.
I know that this might offend the feel of autenticity, but is not so different from using a contemporary carbon or tool steel from medieval style swords that are heat treat with salt pots. we are used to that "compromize" but want soemthing else with bronze. Difficult equaltion that...
I don´t know. The jury is still out on that one.
Again, I´d like to say: Beautifull swords!!!
I want one! |
Peter
Sorry, questions again!
Do you mean compress by 75% or to 75% of the original (if you see what I mean)? Also, these modern harder bronze alloys, do you have any more information on the composition? I've a vague recoillection of reading somewhere that late bronze age bronzes could be as good as early irons, but the latter took over because they were more readily available and cheaper, once the ore processing was understood. Is that anywhere near correct, or just badly remembered folklore?
Thanks
Geoff
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Thu 04 Nov, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: Bronce swords |
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Hay quys.
Take a look at this...
http://www.ratatoskr.de/a.htm
I am pretty exited by this find! 
Dos it look like something??
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Folkert van Wijk
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| Posted: Fri 05 Nov, 2004 2:32 am Post subject: another url about bronce swords |
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Take a look here
http://home.t-online.de/home/dhobraasch/spiral-sammlung.htm
If you can read German that is... 
A good sword will only be sharp, in the hands of a wise man…
I am great fan of everything Celtic BC, including there weapons.
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Steve L.
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| Posted: Fri 28 Jul, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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A little bit late, but...
| Quote: | | I think both blades in the picture are replicas. |
Nope! The left one is definetily an original - i´ve seen it years ago in the museum Schloss Gottorp. The replica is top work!
I have bought two years ago a replica of the roaring german twenties (as anythings was "germanic", also the BA finds) - not for my urnfield re-enactment (then it is no urnfield sword), just for fun and my collection:
It was hard work to remove the fake patina... 
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 28 Jul, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Steve, what a great find!
I've long wanted just such a sword for my own collection. I love bronze age weapons and the form and shape of that one is particularly nice. Do you know if it's actually made of bronze, or brass?
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Steve L.
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| Posted: Fri 28 Jul, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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It is made of bronze, the hilt is casted over the blade (not very common for the time and the location: northern germany). It looks in reality not as yellow as on this pics!
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Dan Dickinson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 28 Jul, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone confirm this, Peter maybe? The information I have found about these swords seems to state that they have a seperately cast handle that is slipped over a tang, the tang is then peened over and the handle is also riveted to the blade like some other bronze age swords. However, taking a look at the x-ray of the original sword, the tang seems to either end halfway up the grip or has snapped off. Does anyone know which is the case? Overall, this technique seems to be similar to antennae hilted swords. Oakeshott states that a tang was tried and rejected for bronze age swords. Is this then another later attempt that survived and thus led to iron age construction methods, or is it perhaps the attempt that he is referring to? Also, my source says that similar swords are from the Danish "decorative style" of about 1000 B.C. though the original sword that started this discussion seems to be dated to more around 1300. Does anyone know if swords of this style continued to be used for a lengthly span of time and if not, which date is more correct?
Any help from more bronze-minded members would be appreciated,
thanks,
Dan
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This is a standard topic