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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject: Torse and Mantling on Bascinets?         Reply with quote

I’m interested in finding historical depictions of torse and mantling on mid-fourteenth century bascinets in England / France. A substantial search of Manuscript Miniatures has not yielded results.

My goal is to spiff up my bascinet for the field and lists, and to do it correctly. I’m aware of many torse and mantling depictions on great helms and jousting helms, but images on bascinets seem to be very rare. Does anyone have images to share or a recommendation for further research?

Thank you in advance,

Scott

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a "SCAdianism" to put torse and mantling on a 14thC bascinet. That stuff belongs on the helm, which has to go over the bascinet in that period.
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Reading list: 87 books

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PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was my fear. Sad

I'm still open to suggestions if anyone thinks there is even one historical depiction of a bascinet with torse and mantling. Worried

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

15thC grand bascinet... no problem.
Look Scott, its a 30+ year old SCAdianism... if you like it, put one on for SCA use. Take it off for LH demos. No biggie.
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Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Oct, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
This was my fear. Sad

I'm still open to suggestions if anyone thinks there is even one historical depiction of a bascinet with torse and mantling. Worried


Here's the best I can do. I found this passage from Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock (ISBN 0-517-10319-2) while reading today.
Quote:
"From about 1300 the basinet was also decorated more or less elaborately, and contemporary accounts speak of gold, pearls and precious stones encrusting these. From this time we read of basinets being decorated by a roll of cloth or torse; this was often richly embellished and was commonly jewelled, as one can see on the monument of Thomas, eighth Lord Berkeley (d 1361) in Berkeley Church, Gloucestershire, and on the brass of Lord Willoughby d'Eresby (d c 1390) at Spilsby, Linconshire" (Edge and Paddock 83).


I found some photos (not the best admittedly, but clearly have decoration on their bascinets) from this person's photostream on flickr.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/515...otostream/

John Willoughby, 3rd Baron Willoughby d'Eresby

Robert Willoughby, 4th Baron Willoughby d'Eresby

William Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughby d'Eresby


Hope this helps some...

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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Oct, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not a torse, a chaplet there. Kind of a plaque belt for the bascinet. Close from a dozen yards but it doesn't interfere with wearing a helm. Padded torse - like ringss were added to bascinets as part of the suspension system but somehow they never seem to appear with a torse in effigies or illuminations. If they were common, as in SCA common.... why don't we find them? Seriously, I like the look & I tried to document it, as did others with better research skills than I.

Nada. Sad
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do these look like torses on the guy in the middle and in the tower? http://manuscriptminiatures.com/francais-1584/2408/
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like a scarf or sash of cloth tied on the protagonist's helmets to draw the eye to them. Without knowing the context the illustration supports, I couldn't suggest why. It does not look like the padded donut and mini flag so commonly stuck on bascinets at SCAdian and re-enactment events.

Love the "face" shield on the tower protagonist. Awesome. Cool
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wasn't sure if these were torses or tokens. Scott said he wanted to spiff up his bascinet and I thought these might be something.
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
I wasn't sure if these were torses or tokens. Scott said he wanted to spiff up his bascinet and I thought these might be something.


Thank you, I missed that during my search. I do belive it's something. Maybe a simple scarf would be more appropriate that a full torse and mantling.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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