Messer training -- myArmoury.com

Sjors B · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:38 am Post subject: Messer training

As already said in the discussion about cuttlas techniques i am a member of a trainingsgroup that, among others, trains with langes messer.
Finding proper training material is however a big problem. We currently use wooden wasters or small shinai but they come with limits such as being unbendable, or bouncing to much.
Any suggestions on what we might use as training weapons?
i do know for example that there is a blacksmith that makes messer-shaped fechtfeders.

Thanks in advance

T. Arndt · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:49 am Post subject:

I recently took Christian Tobler's introductory messer class at WMAW. There were a number of blunt steel messers there, as well as very nice synthetic (nylon?) ones. Unfortunately I don't recall who the maker was, I would recommend PMing Christian.

Christopher Treichel · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 6:19 am Post subject:

Last time I trained with Christian at ISMAC he was using the steel messer trainers from Albion. Scott at Darkwood is also working on a steel messer trainer.

Mike Capanelli · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 6:27 am Post subject:

Christian uses the Albion Maestro line messer. He had two at a seminar I attended for Seloharr Staten Island. They handled great and while they were brand new I'd assume, judging from the quality of the other offerings in that line, they'll hold up great. If that's out of your budget you can either go to Arma Bohemia and order there's, an image of which is right here I'm pretty sure it's blunt by default but I'd check anyway and get them to round out that tip while your at it. Or you could wait for the Hanwei one that's coming out but I'm not sure they have a release date on that one yet. You can check it out right here

Sean Manning · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:11 am Post subject:

Arms & Armor is working on a messer blunt. I think I saw several in use at WMAW 2011 and handled one, but you would have to contact A&A to see if they are in full production yet.

Using a blunt steel arming sword is almost a possibility, since they are fairly similar weapons.

Sjors B · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:28 am Post subject:

thanks for the heads-up everyone.
we tried training with steel messer in the past and they are great for practicing techniques but when you start sparring even blunt steel is considered to dangerous. Also there is a risk when you do drills at high speed.

Andreas Auer · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:54 am Post subject:

have you tried these...?...http://www.trainingsschwerter.com/Training/Trainingswaffen/Alu/Langes-Messer-aus-Alu-Typ-Sparring.html....i use them and they are great....

Andreas

Mackenzie Cosens · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:06 am Post subject:

T. Arndt · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:33 am Post subject:

Johan Gemvik · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:49 am Post subject:

The WMA helmets are a very good idea for hard messer training. So would torso protection, an athletics cup, metal or plastic greaves and gauntlets be too. Going true full force all out with a rebated steel great messer, similar to those Polish full on battles would probably require a proper full plate harness or equivalent to be decently safe like they use and my guess is that some injuries will still occur.

For lighter sparring you wouldn't need any of that of course, but that's something very different.

Sjors B · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:

David Teague · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject:

Answers... from WMAW 2011.

The follow companies have steel blunts in production:

Albion (Hits like a mule in free play)

Darkwood Armoury (Looks like it would hit like a mule in freeplay, lighter than the Albion )

Arms & Armour (Lightest of the bunch, freeplays well with proper gear)

CHT owns a set of Albion blunts that he did not bring to WMAW. He ended up buying a set by Arms & Armour at the event the first day. He had Jessica Finley & I use them for the demo bout at the feast. They played well even if we did not. Eek!

I'm the one that brought a bag of synthetic messers that one of my students made, for CHT's class as lenders (non production item)

I also had a few of the aluminum messers made by Walter Neubauer of Germany. He has a lighten model for fencing that is quite popular in Germany. His prices are quite fair. PM me for info. I think his base prices are about $250 US

It was nice to see such an offering of steel blunts at one event .It's becoming the golden age of messer. YAY!!! Cool

Of everything I saw, held and used last weekend, I would buy the A&A one for $380 as a nice solo, drilling, freeplay weapon as they handle very nicely.

Plan on hand, forearm, neck, head protection with a padded coat (and control, control, control) for freeplay.

Cheers,

DT

Sean Manning · Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject:

Sjors B · Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 1:09 am Post subject:

I agree with you, my personal intention in Historical martial arts is quite the same. I dont mind investing time and money in my training, but there are also members who participate on a lower level (of skill, interest, investment etc.) and we want to offer them a chance to participate as well.

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:01 am Post subject:

Dear all,

As David said, the trainers in my class were the new Arms & Armor messers. They are nothing short of awesome. I was also impressed with Scott Wilson of Darkwood Armory's new messer trainers. Those are a little heavier, but handled extremely well too.

The Albions are lovely, and I love the two I own, but they're best suited for drilling and more controlled bouting.

Echoing, and perhaps augmenting, some of the safety gear suggestions, I'd say for the A&A's you'd need a gambeson or otherwise padded jacket, hard elbow protection (get some inexpensive steel elbows from Windrose), a reinforced fencing mask w/back of the head protection or, better yet, a Windrose Fiore bouting helmet, and good hand protection of some form. Oh, and of course, a cup.

That's all you need, along with discipline and control, to fight with this trainers.

All the best,

Christian

Sa'ar Nudel · Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:27 am Post subject:

I just came back from the Czech Republic where I had met with Ing. Jiri Krondak of Fabri Armorum. He produces a vast array of arms & armor for a lot of groups all over europe and emphasize on safety and rigidity. While can make fine & sharp display or cutting weapons as I've seen, most of the products are plain (hence affordable for large numbers, as in fencing groups) and have very good price-to-quality ratio. Check his messers here: http://fabri-armorum.com/english/?id=tesaky.php
I handled both versions of #4, while the regular one is robust the "feather" version is considerabely lighter.

Sjors B · Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:58 am Post subject:

i'm familiar with Jiri's messer, fought with them myself often.
they are very fine on weigth and balance and still very strong
checking out his site now, for the first time in years, i like his new stuff

Mike Capanelli · Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 10:34 am Post subject:

Does anyone have a link to the A&A trainers? I can't find them on their site.

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 11:04 am Post subject:

They're not on the site yet Mike. I believe Craig sold all the ones he brought to WMAW and has to assemble some more upon his return.

I'll direct him to this thread so he can chime in.

Take care,

CHT

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Hello

As Christian mentioned I am working on assembling a couple to take pictures of for the website as I did not get a chance to on the first group. Literally ran out the door to get to WMAW with weapons still warm from being worked on in my hand. Should have them up in a couple of days. They look quite similar to the ones I did for Bill Grandy pictured here with some slight changes and a lighter weight.

Best
Craig