Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Wed 01 Jun, 2011 5:10 pm
| Ahmad Tabari wrote: |
| But since we know that the Byzantines made use of both types of armour, it seems like a reasonable speculation that they would have incorporated lamellar as a supplement to mail. This makes even more sense given the fact that the armies of their Seljuk foes were mostly composed of horse archers. But again this is all speculation and not hard evidence. |
How does it make sense? Mail is just as good against arrows, is more comfortable, and lighter than lamellar. The only reason you'd wear lamellar is if you didn't have access to mail. If you want more protection and have the means then you either get heavier mail or wear a second layer. Lamellar is a poor second choice.
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Wed 01 Jun, 2011 10:56 pm
Any leather armour that provides decent protection against weapon points will weigh more than mail or any other kind of metal armour and leather can cost a lot more in many cultures than people seem to think - especially in western Europe..
Posts: 2,121 Location: Northern Utah
Thu 02 Jun, 2011 5:41 am
As far as double mail goes... good luck figuring that one out everyone!
Dan,
Have you seen David Nicolle's article on the leather COPish armour used in the Middle East during the 13th? He seems to allude to it being more effective and cheaper than many armours in use there and that leather was less costly.
Now I am not really up on costs and such in that area but I thought it was something perhaps relating to this conversation.
RPM
Posts: 54 Location: Netherlands
Thu 02 Jun, 2011 5:59 am
armour
I always thought a piercing weapon such as an arrow could shatter the rings of mail. unless indeed in combination with padding or in a form as a khazaghand. A lammelar armour being of overlapping plates should provide a more solid front an arrow would not pierce or even deflect upon. What about the Iron lammelar armours interlinkt with iron or bronze wire. They found examples of those. Not sure of place and time though.
Posts: 97 Location: Cincinnati
Thu 02 Jun, 2011 8:16 am
Re: armour
| Sander Alsters wrote: |
| I always thought a piercing weapon such as an arrow could shatter the rings of mail. unless indeed in combination with padding or in a form as a khazaghand. A lammelar armour being of overlapping plates should provide a more solid front an arrow would not pierce or even deflect upon. What about the Iron lammelar armours interlinkt with iron or bronze wire. They found examples of those. Not sure of place and time though. |
Actually, I think you'll find that it's harder to pull apart a well-made ring of metal than it is to pierce through a thin piece. I'd assume it has something to do with tensile strength versus flexural strength.
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:01 am
Nicolle's compendium has plenty of examples of leather armour, including segmented leather. There is nothing to suggest that any of it was worn with mail.
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:04 am
| Ahmad Tabari wrote: |
| Dan Howard wrote: | | Any leather armour that provides decent protection against weapon points will weigh more than mail or any other kind of metal armour and leather can cost a lot more in many cultures than people seem to think - especially in western Europe.. |
According to David Nicolle the regular price of a lamellar Jawshan was 10 dirhams (cost of two sheep in autumn). But I was really surprised to hear that leather cost more in western Europe. |
More than what? I was only saying that it was more expensive than many think. The futher east you go, the more prevalent leather armour becomes.
Posts: 54 Location: Netherlands
Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:39 am
armour
Thanx Conner I looked it up!
I believe in that articel of Nicolle, he was talking about how much it costs in peace time, when at war the prices went up. I could be mistaken its bin a while since I read it.
Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together. I have another question, why did the mongols and Iranians who had the posebility of wearing mail, prefer lammelar? Old depictions of the two batteling together depict the heavy cavalery wearing that armour.
O and, the mail veils hanging from helmets, you know leaving only holes for the eyes. I know it could scare an enemy not seeing your face but did it actually protect the head sufficient enough?
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Fri 03 Jun, 2011 3:02 pm
Re: armour
| Ahmad Tabari wrote: |
| Sander Alsters wrote: | | Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together. |
There certainly is evidence of lamellar being worn over mail. On p.15 of David Nicolle's 'Saladin and the Saracens' there is a picture taken from the Syriac Gospel depicting a scene of Christ before the high priest. The guards in the that depiction are wearing lamellar over mail. The Gospel dates from 1220. Whether or not this was a common practice I dont know, but there is definitly proof of it. |
How about posting the image?
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Sat 04 Jun, 2011 12:33 am
I tried that before asking for a pic. Google Books only has a preview that doesn't include p.15.
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Sat 04 Jun, 2011 6:51 am
The one in the middle is the only one who might be wearing this combination. It could be a few other things also. That is the problem with illustrations. They can all be interpreted many different ways.
Posts: 2,121 Location: Northern Utah
Sat 04 Jun, 2011 12:11 pm
There a few others in the picture in what looks more like some Byzantine armour. Very interesting. It might not be lamellar but some form of rigid to semi-rigid plates, perhaps as Nicolle relates, on the one central gent.
Still a likely show of some form of armour over mail.
RPM
Posts: 148
Sun 05 Jun, 2011 12:33 am
The armour does look a bit strange as their is no lacing to indicate multiple plates in each row.
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