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Aaron Morris
Location: pueblo,colorado Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Sun 24 Apr, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: Pattern welded blades |
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Hello I'm doing a report for my metallurgy class I decided to do it on pattern welding I've had a hard time find much historical information on the process, such as steps taken settings and what not and I wanted to know if anybody knew of any historical information or websites regarding this process, thanks
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Paul Hansen
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Look up Manfred Sachse's - Damaszener Stahl. Mythos. Geschichte. Technik. Anwendung
http://www.damaszener.de/index.php
Sorry, but I don't know any works in English...
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Look also here: http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html
In Ian Pierce's "Swords of the Viking Age" is a nice, informative chapter on pattern welding...
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Philip C. Ryan
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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Philip C. Ryan
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Also, keep in mind while doing research, that "patten welding" and "damascus" are NOT the same thing!
Noone has quite figured out how the Indian/ Persian "damascus" was made. You can, however, get somewhat similar results with certain patten welding styles, as well as by using "wootz" steel. But, since you are focusing on pattern welding, these may or may not have any place in your paper. Just thought I would clarify for you since these terms seem to get very mixed up by alot of modern day people.
Skjaldborg Viking Age Living History and Martial Combat
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Aaron Morris
Location: pueblo,colorado Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the information so far guys, does anyone know what the hardness of one of these blades was, at least ones made with the iron and what not available at that time
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip C. Ryan wrote: | Also, keep in mind while doing research, that "patten welding" and "damascus" are NOT the same thing!
Noone has quite figured out how the Indian/ Persian "damascus" was made. You can, however, get somewhat similar results with certain patten welding styles, as well as by using "wootz" steel. But, since you are focusing on pattern welding, these may or may not have any place in your paper. Just thought I would clarify for you since these terms seem to get very mixed up by alot of modern day people. |
"Damascus" IS a term often (mistakenly) still applied to pattern welded blades today (and wootz blades also) so it's worth a look on youtube for videos with that in the title. It is of course a meaningless and imprecise 'label' which allegedly originates from a misleading 'blanket term' used amongst European collectors in times past to describe all the various types of 'patterned' blades traded through Damascus by the caravans that originally fed those European collectors (it was the first point of contact with the middlemen, so became synonymous with the swords being traded).
"where do these beautiful swords come from?" - Damascus!
As we know, the Wootz made in Syria is 'Sham'.
Wootz crucible steel is a completely separate entity to pattern welding and collectors today have a far greater understanding of the mechanics of the production of these blades so clearly defining ANY pattern or type would be entirely necessary for the accuracy of any paper on the subject.
The possible crossover (for me) would arise when discussing wootz blades with (further) manipulated patterns such as ladders or swirls.
It would perhaps be wise for our friend to concentrate his study in one area, or one culture, even one pattern?
This is a massive and daunting subject!
If we consider 'just' classic pattern welding, there are the familiar types known in Europe. These date back to the classical period.
Some of these patterns are virtually identical to asian, Ottoman, Moro...etc
Then there are of course the 'region specific' pattern welding types, like 'hairpin' and multiple hairpin used in Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal etc. The Raindrop pattern from India, the Patterns of Keris blades......
Consider 'Star Pattern' (twistcore)
Here is a section of an extremely fine Kindjal Blade of mine made in 1904:
This pattern has been used across the world for some two millenium!
I think that first, specific aims and parameters for the study are needed.
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Morris wrote: | | thanks for the information so far guys, does anyone know what the hardness of one of these blades was, at least ones made with the iron and what not available at that time |
Aaron,
Define 'one of these'?
They are all different.
It's like saying 'how fast is a car'?
The blade in the picture in my above thread has what is known as a 'pattern welded core' so essentially the cutting edges are steel attached either side of the star pattern twistcore in the centre.
With any pattern welded blade, the pattern is being produced by manipulating layers of different material, usually of very different potential hardnesses. The finished blade is then usually etched with the areas of softer material being more affected by the acid and thus showing the pattern by contrast with the harder areas.
Where the pattern goes to the cutting edge, it is more usual to make sure that the pattern makes accomodation for an outer 'edge' of the harder material.
I would imagine that a star pattern edge would make for a pretty ragged one.
Best
Gene
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Aaron Morris
Location: pueblo,colorado Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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right, I don't know if this is specific enough but maybe an average hardness of pattern welded blades from around 2nd century I don't really need a hardness for a specific blade just an idea on how hard early ones were averagely compared to bronze or iron blades that were used prior to these
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Morris wrote: | | right, I don't know if this is specific enough but maybe an average hardness of pattern welded blades from around 2nd century I don't really need a hardness for a specific blade just an idea on how hard early ones were averagely compared to bronze or iron blades that were used prior to these |
Hi Aaron,
Undoubtedly in general terms they are an improvement over all Iron or Bronze blades, but they were developed out of the limitations of the then current technology into an art form of their own with often cultural implications.
Have a look at the following link. It's a 'damascus' board on a knifemaking forum:
http://knifenetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.ph...9&f=76
You should have a look through the threads there as there are some very interesting ones. Also some of the other sections might be helpful so look to the main area.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: |
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You would have quite a lot different hardnesses in the same blade as you would have at least 2 different metals in the core and another in the edges. The only hardness worth measuring would be the hardness of metal in the rods used for the edge, and even that metal would have different hardnesses along the edge because of different percentage of impurities in the metal and because of uncertainty of ancient and medieval heat treatment. If the blade would be heat treated at all.
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | You would have quite a lot different hardnesses in the same blade as you would have at least 2 different metals in the core and another in the edges. The only hardness worth measuring would be the hardness of metal in the rods used for the edge, and even that metal would have different hardnesses along the edge because of different percentage of impurities in the metal and because of uncertainty of ancient and medieval heat treatment. If the blade would be heat treated at all. |
Exactly! Have you seen the rockwell tests being done on wootz blades?
These blades are unique and no two are alike.
There is no 'standardisation' in such a process. It's very difficult to speak about them in terms that are familiar to us from modern steels/alloys.
A friend of mine has accidentally broken TWO fine wootz swords by simply dropping them!
A fine 17th century Shamshir fell point first (I think as he was putting it back on the wall) and snapped in half!
Another Indian wootz (if memory serves) Tulwar had a similar mishap and broke the last few inches off of the blade.
On the other hand, I personally straightened a significant bow in a fine ladder pattern wootz shamshir (that I didin't realise was wootz), with a lump hammer!! (Long story, it was out of polish and I thought it was just plain steel!).
Point is, no two swords are alike!
Oh, and I'm VERY careful not to drop them point first now!! lol
I've got a 17th/18thC Indian crystaline wootz Tulwar that the blade is completely rigid and you feel like it wouldn't 'give' at all, but others that are quite 'springy'
Have a look at this resource: J.D. Verhoeven's article is an absolute must read:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html
Best
Gene
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This is a standard topic