[Jason Henry]

Hi everyone,

We at Berserk Games are creating a first-person, multi-player, medieval, action game (yes a lot of adjectives) set during the hundred year war, which will feature historical accuracy of combat technique, arms & armors, and real to life injuries and damage system. The goal is for this to be the most immersion combat experience and feature a very skill-based multi-player combat. The players will be a mercenary hired by the House of Valois or House of Plantagenet where you earn currency to buy better equipment and progress your character, but with the same advantages and disadvantages actually experienced (ie, Yes plate offers the best protection, but in comparison to light armor like a Gambeson you would tire out quicker and your actions are more restricted)

I've researched the majority of arms & armor of the time period, but there is much conflicting reported on weapon effectiveness against certain armors.

Being that I respected the opinions of the people on this website, if you guys/gals could fill out this chart, it would be greatly appreciated

For the sake of simplicity and saving time for you I will be grossly generalizing.

For each spot assume a solid blow (comma) then a glancing hit. Use a rating of 1 to 10, where 1 means completely harmless and 10 means devastating.

Example

[Michael Curl]

I will fill this out but you need more detail. By sword do you mean a 2 handed longsword or an arming sword? A great two-hander or a sabre? Additionally are we simply talking about piercing armour or attacking around it? For my answers I assumed you wanted a weapon simply striking the armour and not trying to get around it. I am also (especially in the glancing blows, factory damage to the armour rather than simply damage to the person.

For each spot assume a solid blow (comma) then a glancing hit. Use a rating of 1 to 10, where 1 means completely harmless and 10 means devastating.



Template

Plate
Sword Slash: 2,1
Sword Pierce: 2,1
Axe: 5,3
Mace: 5,3
Spear: 3,1

Brigandine
Sword Slash: 4,3
Sword Pierce: 6,2
Axe: 5,2
Mace: 4,2
Spear: 5,2

Scale I don't know anything about it.
Sword Slash:
Sword Pierce:
Axe:
Mace:
Spear:

Mail
Sword Slash: 3,1
Sword Pierce: 5,2
Axe: 6,3
Mace: 5,2
Spear: 5,3

Gambeson
Sword Slash: 5,4
Sword Pierce: 4,3
Axe: 7,4
Mace: 4,1
Spear: 5,3

[Nathan Robinson]

This is grossly over-simplified. As mentioned, one must consider more variables and ask more questions (which are also over-simplified) such as, "What kind of sword?", "What kind of plate armour and in what configuration?", "What kind of axe/spear/etc.?", "What sort of tactics or experience of the people is involved?", "Is one or the other mounted or on foot?", "Are the participants fighting alone or with others?", etc., etc., etc.

Further, the exploration of how armour actually relates to attrition and mobility needs to happen beyond general assumptions.

I only mention this because part of the topic's author states as a qualifier that this is intended to define, "historical accuracy of combat technique, arms & armors, and real to life injuries and damage system". If that is the goal, it's not possible to answer the questionnaire as presented here.

The manner in which the question is asked indicates a lack of understanding of historical accurate combat techniques, arms and armour, etc. While I realize the limitations of having a game-system that is attempting to portray something from reality while still being playable and executable, I caution calling it "historically accurate" if it is not. Perhaps "historically inspired" is a better term..

[Jason Henry]

For brevities sake I didn't include all the various types of weapons and configuration for the simple fact of not wanting to make people have to fill out a 2 miles long form, but I will readily edit to include all the various configurations, because they will be included I just didn't list them. If you took a look at my 600 line long spreadsheet just on weapons & armor you wouldn't think I was trying to oversimplify at all Also, all equipment will be properly proportioned and weighted based on historical references.

Here's what I just typed out in a PM to someone inquiring about combat technique.

"Combat will be as realistic as possible featuring 4 stances Ox, From the Roof, Plow, and Near Ward (We didn't include all 6 or so longsword stances because of over complexity & animation constraints, but these we felt yielded the largest diversity). From those stance different swing direction will be available (ie, in From the Roof gives you access to downward swing, and the 2 angled swing directions from above). Players transition between the stances to preform different swings. Players must defend themselves in the direction of the swing by moving the sword to "displace" the blow. Others action players have is to dodge in a direction, kick, and a pommel strike. All and all this will be as authentic as possible being that you only have a mouse and keyboard to control you character."

I don't mean to disservice medieval warfare I hope to include as much of the finer points as possible. Hopefully we can reach a broader audience and they learn that medieval combat didn't consist of bulky overweight plated warriors wielding 30 pound swords like sledge hammers clashing edge to edge, but more of finesse and grace using the flat of the blade to displace blows and return a strike in the same motion.

[Jason Henry]

Michael Curl,

Thanks for taking the time to fill out the chart I updated it to reflect a much wider variety of equipment.


Updated Sword Template

Blows are done to the actually armor not around, bypassing armor will be in, but they will use mail/gambeson (depending on what the enemies is wearing) defense because you avoided the plate by strike in-between the joints.

For each spot assume a solid blow (comma) then a glancing hit. Use a rating of 1 to 10, where 1 means completely harmless and 10 means devastating (this is of how much effect against the recipient not the armor).

Tempered Plate Slashing
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Tempered Plate Piercing
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Unhardened Average Plate Slashing
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Unharded Average Plate Piercing
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Munitions Plate Slashing
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Munitions Plate Pierce
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Riveted Mail Slash
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Riveted Mail Pierce
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Butted Mail Slash
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

Butted Mail Pierce
Arming:
Scimitar:
Falchion:
Bastard:
Estoc:
Greatsword:

There's obviously a lot more sword types but they are within the listed categories and slight variations of such.

edited: added mail

[Michael Curl]

I think that, perfect realism aside, sounds like a really good idea and a project I would be really interested in learning more about it.

Personally, I have an easier time filling out a 1-5 than a 1-10 since it separates crap, bad, ok, good, great. Would you mind if I answered like that or do you want the 1-10? Also I hope you include a armour getting worse after repeated blows system.

my answers are on a 1-5 but I could change to 1-10 if you want
Tempered Plate Slashing
Arming: 1,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 1,1
Bastard: 1,1
Estoc: 1,1 (estoc has no cutting edge so this would be simply bashing with the "blade"
Greatsword: 3,1
I don't think plate is ever affected by glancing blows, while I would score higher marks for damageing armour I don't see edge blows to armour doing much more than stunning people.

Tempered Plate Piercing
Arming: 1,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 1,1
Bastard: 1,1 (you should try to pierce the gaps in armour not the armour itself)
Estoc: 1,1
Greatsword: 2,1 (due to sheer weight)

Unhardened Average Plate Slashing
Arming: 1,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 2,1 (my falchion knowledge is poor but I imagine the weight forward blade would help deliver force through the plate)
Bastard: 1,1
Estoc: 1,1
Greatsword: 3,1

Unharded Average Plate Piercing
Arming: 1,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 1,1
Bastard: 1,1
Estoc: 1,1
Greatsword: 3,1

Munitions Plate Slashing
Arming: 1,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 2,1
Bastard: 1,1
Estoc: 1,1
Greatsword: 4,1

Munitions Plate Piercing
Arming: 2,1
Scimitar: 1,1
Falchion: 1,1
Bastard: 1,1
Estoc: 1,1
Greatsword: 3,1

The reason for such low numbers (as I've partially said earlier) is that I don't think any sword (except a greatsword) has really any chance of actually hurting someone inside the armour with a blow to the plate. As said, all attacks would be to gaps. However I do think (especially with the untempered plates) the armour could be rather easily ablated especially with a great sword or falchion.
These numbers were on a 1-5, but all the 1's would also be 1's on a 1-10, while the 2's would be either 2's or 3's. The 3's and 4's would be in the 4-7 range (though the greatsword is a weapon I'm not familiar with so just how lethal a strike from it would be is a guess on my part.)

[Jason Henry]

Sounds good, whatever makes it easier for you. Thanks for taking to time to do this we can discuss more about the project in PM if you would like.

But yes, perfect realism will be impossible in video game as much as I would like to see it.

[Dan Howard]

GURPS Low-Tech is detailed enough now that you could just lift the figures, insert them into a simulation program, and get reasonably realistic results. The only change I would make would be to reduce the granularity by changing d6 to d10.

[N Cioran]

Jason,

As Fiore di Liberi says in the period you're looking at, "I would rather fight three times in armour than once in a arming coat and gloves." He goes on to discuss how you can miss a cover and still go on to win a fight because of the protective value of armour. Exploring his work shows that the protective value of armour is so great that he has moves like lifting the faceplate to stab in the face, or bending your opponent over to thrust the sword up his posterior parts. He has different guards for fighting in armour or unarmoured. The techniques for finishing an armoured opponent on foot include grappling, throws, disarms, and arm breaks. A

Even then, the greatest challenge is that he is teachning an elite, and assumes you come in already knowing the basics of combat: unarmed strikes and grapples, strikes with sword, lance, spear, etc. These can be divined from his work, but that is an ongoing process.

All that said, you really should explore his work if you are going to make a good job of it.

Another key area to consider is your assumptions. Wearing armour is fatiguing, certainly. However, physicall conditioning in armour is a critical component of the training of men-at-arms, and as a result a trained man at arms wearing armour would be at a baseline with someone who is not conditioned in armour... Or in other words, you essentially tire no faster in armour if you're conditioned to it than someone not in armour who is not.

Food for thought, and something that will be very difficult to tabulate.

Cole

[Jason Henry]

N Cioran,

Full suits of plate came to be around the 15th century and will not be included in our game because we are shooting right around mid 14th century, but we will have plate cuirasses. I chose the time period because I felt it offered the most diversity of medieval warfare, something I felt full suit of plate armor nullified, because of it's almost immunity to sword and bow.

Jason

[Ben J.]

[Bryce Felperin]

[Jason Henry]

Ben J.,

The way we will be modelling openings in armor is by using the same means as games differentiate between a headshot and bodyshot in shooting games, by using hitboxes. The players will be able to aim each blow from there view so they can choose to target those weakness, but as I said above the game will not have full suits of plate armor so the only really in-between armor joints will by with helmets and striking someone in the open face. We will of course only have armor protect what it is covering on the body so for example your oppponent is wearing a plate cuirass, striking him in the chest is not the ideal method of attack but to go for the face, arms, legs, etc.

Grappling I know is a main part of armored combat but will not translate well to a video game because it just isn't fun. The only means we will have as I also said above besides hurting someone with your weapons blade is a pommel bash and kick.


Bryce Felperin,

Indeed this is German Longsword, but it will be used for 2 hand sword and 1 hand sword by removing the second hand from the animation, so there is fluidity between the two and saves development time. If we had unlimited time in resources, sure we could accurately model each weapon type and individual animation, but alas we don't

I also never said longsword technique was simple, hardly, but it has to simplified for the simple fact is has to be to work in a game.



We are still up in the air on how we are going to do fighting styles for polearm combat if anyone knows some good reasources I could use to research it would be greatly appreicated.

[Ben J.]

[Jason Henry]

Ben J.,

Hitboxes will be the same size of what it is representing on the body, you will aim your swing using the mouse and looking at the location you want to strike at similar to a first person shooter.

We might have special "finishing moves" for dispatching a foe after a very brutal counter where it will do a quick cinematic death through first person view, this depends on how much time our animators have.

For sword and buckler combat I was thinking of have different "stances" where the shield is positioned covering specific parts of the body which is turn restricts the swing you can do because you buckler would limit those directions.

I'll have to check out Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair thanks for the suggestion.

[Robert Hinds]

First of all thanks for making a historically accurate FP game. Does it have a name yet? If it does are you aloud to release the name so we know what to look for when it comes out? If you can't thats totally understandable.

I don't feel confident filling out the questionnaire due to my lack of experience with anything other than my Hanwei practical longsword; but I just wanted to make a few suggestions.

You could include grappling by forcing the player to get up real close and push a few keys to go into a throw or disarm, similar to Halo 3's "assassination" move. This is pretty much like your finishing moves you mentioned, but could be done before the enemy is nearly dead.

Concerning the conditioned man at arms and armour fatigue: maybe have the player select a class (archer/infantry or man at arms/knight), which would effect their combat effectiveness in a gambeson or plate. Or maybe have a skill that was raised when wearing armour, that would directly effect a players fatigue when wearing armour. Another idea would be to have a special instructor somewhere that for a fee would train them to be better in combat when wearing armour (similar to trainers in "The Elder Scrolls Morrowind/Oblivion").

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in, good luck making the game!

[Michael Curl]

I think that it is important that everyone keep in mind that this is a video game and that there is only so much that can be done with it. And compared to mount and blade, the only other game out there as far as I'm concerned, it will be much better, rather than the stab, left, right, high strikes. I also hope there will be bows and xbows and horses and jousting, even if it is only as complicated as in m&b.

[Augusto Boer Bront]

[Jason Henry]

Augusto Boer Bront,

I should be more specific sorry I meant not full plate breastplate but transitional plate.

This is not our game but is a good example of transitional plate. You can see brigandine on the left and riveted plates of smaller pieces on the right.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1894/84211762.png

[Augusto Boer Bront]

Well, the armour on the right is a full plate armour.
For what I've undrstood, you wanted to use transitional armour, mid XIVth cent.
http://mirageswar.com/uploads/posts/1203690882_war581.gif
Add a brigandine and here you are.