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About a name called "kidney" of the Ballock Dagger
Hi :)

I have some questions about the ballock dagger... :?:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bd.html
Quote:
Another term, coined by Victorian-era historians in an apparent effort to downplay the sexual connotation of the dagger's form, is the kidney dagger.

It is written that "kidney" means as for "kindly" in most Japanese sites.
The kidney dagger of "Kidney" has the meaning of the kindness, too.
A ballock dagger was used for a misericorde.
A ballock dagger was used to dispatch knights(include the friend) who had received mortal wounds. etc...

Did somebody mistake "kidney" for "kindly"? :wtf:
However, the same thing is written in most Japanese sites... :?: :eek: :wtf:

"Kidney" had the other meanings when I examined an English-Japanese dictionary.
for example: a man of that kidney
However, the meaning of the kindness is not found.

I examined it about the etymology of "kidney".
The correct etymology is unclear, but originally it seems to be spelling called "kidenere".
It is thought that "kidenere" is "cwid(womb)" + "ey(ovum)". (cwid and ey is old English)
The person who watched kidney for the first time...
The person named it it from the form...
After all the meaning of the kindness is not found.......

ummmm..... Does "kidney" have the meaning of "kindly", too? :?:


Quote:
The name ballock dagger is derived from the phallic shape of the hilt (the two lobes of the guard combined with the shape of the grip) and the 14th century warrior's propensity for wearing the dagger directly in front of the girdle.

My English is very poor ><
Does "the front of the belt" mean "the surface of the belt?" :?:
Or does "the front of the belt" mean "the stomach(navel) part of the belt?" :?:
At the most of a Japanese site, there is only a description that "the two lobes of the guard resemble the testicles".

thanks ^^ :)


Last edited by Ushio Kawana on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total
You have 2 kidneys in your body, one on each side of the spine, near your back. They connect to your bladder. They're organs for filtering and processing liquid waste (aka urine).

These daggers were sometimes (not always) worn at the front of the belt centered on the body. This is where most people have the buckle of their belt these days. Because these daggers are phallic (meaning the grip looks like two testicles and an upward pointing penis), wearing the dagger centered on your front would make it seem even more phallic.
Further to Chad Arnow's reply: The Medieval name for the dagger 'Bollock' or 'Ballock' (English slang for testicle) refers to the double lobed shape of the guard. As Chad points out these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic (some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!). The Victorians, who were more prudish and sensitive, found the use of the term too offensive and so referred to these as 'Kidney' daggers because the shape could also be said to be reminiscent of the organ by that name (I doubt they even put the more suggestively shaped ones on public display!)
Thanks Chad and Jason. I understood it. :)
Quote:
these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic

Now I look for an illust of wearing a dagger in the front.

Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

:!: :eek: :!:
Are there the photos? :?:

I have simple question... http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bd.html
Quote:
During the Middle Ages there were five main types of daggers. Each dagger was differentiated from the other types by the shape of its hilt:

ballock dagger, baselard, quillon dagger, ear dagger, and rondel dagger...
Which type is the oldest? :?: Which type is the newest? :?:
Here is a mid 14C English example of a 1/2 ballock 1/2 baselard dagger (the effigy)
Here is a 14C image which I think is East European or Italian. (The painting)


 Attachment: 141.71 KB
SIR PIERS DE GRANDISON 1355.jpg


 Attachment: 62.06 KB
Possilbe-East-European.jpg

Hi :) Thaks Mackenzie, Chad and Jason :)

We knows that the shape of a ballock dagger's hilt resembles the testicles(or kidneys).
I have very simple question... :?:

A) Was the hilt of the ballock dagger made with the testicles as a motif? (The testicles were motifs from a beginning...)
Or
B) The hilt became the shape of the testicles over time? (The testicles were not motifs from a beginning...)

Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
The Medieval name for the dagger 'Bollock' or 'Ballock' (English slang for testicle) refers to the double lobed shape of the guard. As Chad points out these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic (some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

Therefore, I think it is
B) The hilt became the shape of the testicles over time...
Is this right?

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?

ummmm... it is toooo difficult to write in English for me... :( :( :(


p.s.
I was very busy... But I'm going to return to this forum ^^ :)
Ushio Kawana wrote:

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?


Ushio,

I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned. Medieval people were far more open to dirty humour than we realize. In addition, because sex was an everyday part of life, and because, especially at the lower levels of society, there was not that much privacy, I think medieval people were in some ways less uncomfortable about sex than say people from Victorian England. This means that things like phallic imagery was something that you'd see every once in a while, like this 15th century flying phallus badge:

[ Linked Image ]

Also, if you've ever read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, from the late 14th century, you know that some of his stories are downright filthy, like The Miller's Tale: http://www.richardbrodie.com/Chaucer/Miller.html

So, in short, given medieval humour and sensibilities, my guess is that ballock daggers were intentionally designed that way.
Craig Peters wrote:
Ushio Kawana wrote:

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?


Ushio,

I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned. Medieval people were far more open to dirty humour than we realize. In addition, because sex was an everyday part of life, and because, especially at the lower levels of society, there was not that much privacy, I think medieval people were in some ways less uncomfortable about sex than say people from Victorian England. This means that things like phallic imagery was something that you'd see every once in a while, like this 15th century flying phallus badge:

Also, if you've ever read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, from the late 14th century, you know that some of his stories are downright filthy, like The Miller's Tale: http://www.richardbrodie.com/Chaucer/Miller.html

So, in short, given medieval humour and sensibilities, my guess is that ballock daggers were intentionally designed that way.


As an aside if you like the look of said pewters try http://medievalwares.com/index.php?main_page=...=66_99_102 or http://www.revivalclothing.com/pewterpinsandb...wters.aspx
Thanks Craig and Mackenzie :)

Craig Peters wrote:
Quote:
I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned.

ummmm... After all it is difficult to know the origin... :(

Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

I cannot yet find photos... But I can believe that it exist!

thanks :)
Also, nothing would feel as satifying as seeing your arch-nemisis laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor :P
Ushio Kawana wrote:
Thanks Craig and Mackenzie :)



Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

I cannot yet find photos... But I can believe that it exist!

thanks :)


http://www.castlerockmuseum.com/exhibits/daggers/DA03.1/index.php

There's a rather good example displayed here, not really much left to the imagination!
Hi all. Thanks Sam and Jason :)

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying(satisfying) as seeing your arch-nemisis(archenemy) laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor.

ummmmmm... sorry... My English is poor... I do not know what you mean... :(
If this is satire or a joke... It is too difficult for me. (The English satire or jokes are different from Japanese)
When I read first... I imagined as follows... :idea:
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" :eek: :eek: :eek:
"It is a very mysterious scene!!!" :eek:

Quote:
http://www.castlerockmuseum.com/exhibits/daggers/DA03.1/index.php
The earliest ballock knives are quite phallic shaped at the pommel end as well as the hilt.

If it is right...
The hilt of the ballock dagger made with the testicles as a motif. (The testicles were motifs from a beginning...)

Thanks ^^
I think it is reasonable to believe that "The testicles were motifs from a beginning"

mackenzie
Ushio Kawana wrote:
Hi all. Thanks Sam and Jason :)

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying(satisfying) as seeing your arch-nemisis(archenemy) laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor.

ummmmmm... sorry... My English is poor... I do not know what you mean... :(
If this is satire or a joke... It is too difficult for me. (The English satire or jokes are different from Japanese)
When I read first... I imagined as follows... :idea:
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" :eek: :eek: :eek:


Yes, it 'twas a crude joke on my behalf. But I do believe you have got it :D
Hi all :)

Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying as seeing your arch-nemisis laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor :P

Quote:
When I read first... I imagined as follows... :idea:
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" :eek: :eek: :eek:

I think that such crude joke scene was not rare in a real battlefield...

We know that the weak points of the plate armour is...
* visor(eye slit)
* inside of the hands
* armpit
* groin
* back of knee and the back of the thigh

If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight. :eek: :lol: :wtf:

Thanks :)
Ushio Kawana wrote:

If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight. :eek: :lol: :wtf:

Thanks :)


Ushio,

We know from the late medieval manuals on fighting in armour that dagger fighting in armour very often finished on the ground, with one knight lifting the visor on the helmet of his enemy and stabbing him in the face. In some ways, with the shape of the ballock dagger, this is even more humiliating, if you know what I mean.
I personally think that the two knobs of the ballock dagger were originally designed to prevent the hand from sliding down over the blade. Similarities between the knobs and testicles were quickly (if not immediately) recognized and were soon emphasized in the construction of the knife and where it was worn.
Hi all. :) Thanks Craig and James :)

Quote:
We know from the late medieval manuals on fighting in armour that dagger fighting in armour very often finished on the ground, with one knight lifting the visor on the helmet of his enemy and stabbing him in the face.

Yes. We know this thing very well.

Quote:
In some ways, with the shape of the ballock dagger, this is even more humiliating, if you know what I mean.

I think so, too, but I have some questions, too... :?:
Phallic(shape) have meanning of the symbol of good-health and the poweeful-strength etc...
Phallic(shape) have many good meanings. :)
We know that wepons and armours are often decorated.
I think... phallic(shape) decoration means the powerful of the dagger...

If a blade resembles a "shape of the rod of xxxxx" not a grip... :eek:
And if one knight killed by this dagger... :eek:
It is very humiliating... :eek:

However, the user grasps a grip(rod of xxxxx). :D

ummmm... it is toooo difficult to write in English for me... :(

Of course,
Quote:
If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight.

This is very humiliating!

Thanks ^^
Hi :)

I found strange description in Wikipedia.

Bollock dagger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollock_dagger
Quote:
The bollock dagger is the source of the expression, to get, or give, a "bollocking", meaning to give or receive a severe chastisement.[1][not in citation given]

Is this true? :?: :?: :?:
Yes, yes it is true.
Also, to confuse things further, the slang term "The dogs bollocks" means something is good e.g. "That car is the dogs bollocks!"
And indeed you are correct, the symbolic meaning of a phallic object often does mean strength/power, and other such things, however it depends a lot on context. So having a bollock dagger is a good thing, whilst being stabbed with one is a bad thing. So by gripping the handle and dispatching your foe, you are symbolically displaying your strength and masculinity over them as well as, more practically, finishing them off.
However methinks perhaps one may be reading too much into it, the fact is that it's funny and that sub-context doesn't have to make much sense! :lol:








Mind you, stabbing your mortal enemy in the genitals with ones own bollock dagger is quite humorous... Gives a whole to meaning to "wood".
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