[Chad Arnow]

There are a number of long daggers that survive from the 14th and 15th centuries. By long, I mean approaching or reaching 2 feet or more in overall length.

I've heard it mentioned that these are weapons of archers, billmen, and other people who wouldn't be armed with a sword. So, they're not necessarily knightly weapons by that line of thought.

Is there any evidence (pictorial or otherwise) for the use of these by people who would also be armed with a sword?

[Reece Nelson]

I don't know of any evidence of it shown in any paintings or fight manuals about that length of blade being used in conjunction with a sword. The only famous figure that I know of using one was Fiore dei Liberi. I imagine the advantages are great, having a blade thats long like a short sword, and the speed and faness of a dagger.

[Jean Thibodeau]

There is also some variety in long daggers: Cinquedea, long Rondels, Baselard, Coustille, Kindjal, Dirk, .

By design, form or tradition I guess some extremely long ones are still called daggers but just my way of looking at it anything over 20" long is really getting into the short sword to sword length by whatever name one calls them.

Generally being lighter and faster than a sword of the same length blade might be a criteria to still call then daggers I guess ?

But getting past definition splitting of hair the subject seems interesting.

A long Rondel used with the ice pic grip is very difficult to block using dagger blocking techniques as the point with still reach you even if you block the arm holding the dagger. ( At least this is what my dagger instructor mentioned about the very long Rondels )


Also maybe short sword in length but lighter and less of a hindrance for someone carrying a polearm or a bow or crossbow as their primary weapon than a sword.

I don't know if one would want such and extremely long dagger if one was already carrying a sword but a still large 15" blades dagger might be more useful ? A long Rondel might be useful as a backup for a sword as it's more effective against armour than the sword in many ways as a specialized tool/weapon.

[Chad Arnow]

Thanks for the input, guys! I should have been more specific. I'm not really interested (for the purpose of this thread) in items made both in dagger lengths and sword lengths like cinquedeas or baselards. I'm also not talking about any of those fecthbuch daggers with extra-long hilts.

The vast majority of the examples I've seen have been rondel daggers. Those are what I'm most interested in.

[Henrik Zoltan Toth]

Maybe:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Stibor.jpg


Stiborici Stibor, Transylvanian voivod, etc in the time of King and emperor Sigismund of Luxemburg.

Zoltán

[Blaz Berlec]

If you look at the images on Imareal for the gruesome theme "Bethlehemitischer Kindermord" you get all kinds of soldiers with long knives. Usually the ones with the knives don't have swords.

1469 Wien Schottenstift ; Schottenaltar


1470 - 1480 ; Innsbruck ; Österreich ; Tirol ; Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum


1455 - 1465 ; Nürnberg ; Deutschland ; Franken ; St. Lorenz


1490 - 1500 ; Bardejov ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche St. Ägidius




1495 - 1505 ; Presov ; Slowakei ; Kirche St. Nikolaus

[Blaz Berlec]

Some other scenes with very long knives:

1490 - 1500 ; Kremsmünster ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Stiftsgalerie; Anbetung der Könige


1465 - 1475 ; Wartberg an der Krems ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Pfarrkirche; Enthauptung des Hl. Kilian und seiner Gefährten


1465 - 1475 ; Wartberg an der Krems ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Pfarrkirche; Judaskuss;Gefangennahme Christi


1449 ; Salzburg ; Österreich ; Salzburg ; Museum Carolino Augusteum; Hl. Hermes


1509 ; Mareit ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Filialkirche St. Magdalena, Kreuztragung Christi


1475 - 1485 ; Klerant ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Filialkirche St. Nikolaus; Hl. Nikolaus rettet drei zum Tod Verurteilte


1495 - 1505 ; Villnöß ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Filialkirche in Pardell; Keulenmartyrium des Hl. Valentin


1446 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek; Zweikampf zwischen Heraklius und dem Sohn des Chosroes

[Craig Johnson]

Hi Guys

Interesting stuff. I have often pondered these pieces and the more general topic of arms choice in period.

We have a tendency to be a bit sword centric in my opinion. The amount of individuals armed with swords may have been less than we imagine. But that does not mean they where not armed. It occurred to me that if one has a preference or is "issued" a weapon that is not a sword that a back up dagger of some length might be a choice often made. When we look at the fighting arts of the period we see how effective such a dagger would be in the mixed weapons environment of the day but something in the 24" and under range would be quite handy. (thats under 60 cm)

As an example if you are an armored combatant and have a pole hammer you would not carry a sword as well most likely but would want a side arm.

Thats my theory for these types. It would also explain there use by Irish warriors armed with axes and spears.

Best
Craig

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Blaz Berlec]

Most of the time people on the depictions wearing (or using) very long knives and daggers are not shown in war or similar large scale engagement. I know that themes of these kind of religious paintings are quite in favour of showing various guards (at the tomb of Jesus, attacking various martyrs...), but the depictions of "knights" with such long knives are rare.

Would a mounted knight carrying a longsword, a lance and a normal length rondell dagger change all those for a longer dagger if he chose to fight on foot with the pollaxe? I doubt it. I think those long knives are more of a civil weapon, where longsword or even a one handed sword would be an "overkill". That would include knights in civil clothing (some of these longer daggers are really noble and expensive weapons). Various guards are also often in a position when they don't have to carry a lot of "firepower", and their weapons could also be quite fancy (reflecting the status of their employee).

There is also possibility that these very long daggers are a way of circumventing various laws regarding carrying swords in some places (inside towns, inside buildings).

[Joel Chesser]

fascinating topic! I have seen the long bladed rondel dagger in the spotlight topic and found it very interesting.
Do we have any more pictures of historical examples other than in period art? An examples of long bladed quillon daggers like slender short swords?

[Blaz Berlec]

Here are some "longish daggers" I found after a quick look. I don't have the dimensions for most of the daggers (or other info, apart from museum), and some are perhaps shorter than they appear (if they have slender blades and hilts).

Rothenburg o.d.T. - Reichsstadtmuseum


Rothenburg o.d.T. - Reichsstadtmuseum


Rothenburg o.d.T. - Reichsstadtmuseum


Rothenburg o.d.T. - Reichsstadtmuseum


Paris - Musée National du Moyen Âge (The Cluny)


Paris - Musée de l'Armée (Les Invalides)


Ingolstadt - Bayerisches Armeemuseum


Firenze - Museo del Bargello


Firenze - Museo del Bargello


Brussels - Koninklijk Legermuseum

[Chad Arnow]

Here are two examples from the Museo Nazionale del Bargello. They are just under 60 cm in overall length.

The cataloguer couldn't decide if the first one was a dagger or short sword.

[Chad Arnow]

Blaz,
Thanks for all the pics. It's appreciated.

Everyone,
Thanks for bringing up good points. I think common sense might say it's not practical to wear a big dagger and a sword, but then there's that slab of Stibor Stiboric of Beckov. It certainly doesn't seem to have been common.

[Chad Arnow]

From www.gothiceye.com :

Sir Thomas Greene (d. 1462):

[Dmitry Z~G]

These are very few extant examples of the Russian 16th c. long daggers, called Podsaadachny Nozh, i.e. the Under-Saadak Knife; saadak being a quiver for arrows and the bow.
The knife pictured below belonged to Prince Andrei Ivanovich Staritsky, ca. early 1500s. Total length 52 cm, blade is 44 cm.
Saadak pictured below belonged to Tzar Alexei Mikhailovich Romanov, the father of Peter The Great. The knife [a dagger, really] would have been attached on a belt underneath it.

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Going a little outside the desired period you find that Swetnam recommended carrying a two-foot dagger and four-foot rapier while Smythe complained about soldiers bringing overly long daggers (with "ale-house" hilts) to war. He considered a blade between nine and ten inches with a minimal cross to be ideal.

[Timo Nieminen]

[Blaz Berlec]

Here is a bit bigger version of Dürer's drawing, looks like the soldiers are carrying rondels:

http://www.aisenbrey-auenwald.de/images/kriegsleute.gif

[Michal Plezia]

Swiss daggers could be very long. Some soldiers in the picture have both dagger and sword.