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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Very short haubergeons?         Reply with quote

Are there any evidence to suggest that very short haubergeons were in use during the 14th century, worn together with coats-of-plates (which supposedly rendered full-length mail shirts superflous)? It's the reconstruction here that made me curious:



From:
http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/drae...rynja.html

So are there any sources to support the use of this type of mail armour? Or is it to be held as purely conjectural?
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Tue 28 Sep, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Very short haubergeons?         Reply with quote

Mikael Ranelius wrote:
Are there any evidence to suggest that very short haubergeons were in use during the 14th century, worn together with coats-of-plates (which supposedly rendered full-length mail shirts superflous)? [...] So are there any sources to support the use of this type of mail armour? Or is it to be held as purely conjectural?


Some mention was made of these "very short haubergeons" in an old thread of mine Question: 14th century haubergeon vs. voiders & skirt about half way down the page. I don't have much more to offer as I haven't researched this particular subject on my own.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun 03 Oct, 2010 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there, first post finally Big Grin

This kind of short haubergeon is based on the excavations of the Visby Battlefield by Bengt Thordemann (see B. Thordemann, Armour from the Battle of Wisby, Uppsala 1939).
In the massgraves of the battlefield (1361 AD) one of this pieces was found in situ on an actual skeleton( Find no. V xx 6).
They were ment to be worn under coats of plate, similar to the later voiders, quite like it is depicted on the webpage you mentioned.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 06 Oct, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone know how late this 'very short haubergeon' or 'one-piece voiders' would have appeared? Seems like it could be easier for us modern-day folks to just don this, rather than having to sew voiders to arming doublets, and then remove them every time we need to wash the garment ...

Nathan mentioned in the other thread listed above that he'd seen 'artwork of short German shirts and, in particular, Lansdknecht wearing shirts barely reaching the navel' - does anyone have any leads on these?

And does anyone know if this design has its own proper name?
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 19 Oct, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: A historical image ...         Reply with quote

A quick search around The Armour Archive found the image below - was mentioned by Bob Reed a couple of times, and posted by Robert MacPherson. (Thread is at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...n+wounded)

The image (so possibly more discussion about it) was originally posted over at the Arms & Armour Forum, but I didn't find the relevant thread there after a couple of quick searches.

Anyway, at least we have a historical image ... does anyone know more about when and where these were worn?

Kinda makes me wish that instead of having just bought a skirt and voiders, I should have bought a haubergon, and made my own 'halter top' voiders and skirt ... and had enough left over to make a standard!



 Attachment: 160.35 KB
woundedknight posted by Mac on AA 15 Aug 2009; original is at AAF.jpg


Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Oct, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A historical image ...         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Kinda makes me wish that instead of having just bought a skirt and voiders, I should have bought a haubergon, and made my own 'halter top' voiders and skirt ... and had enough left over to make a standard!
This is exactly what I did when Andre at Icefalcon had his "blackened mail blowout" a while back. Happy One hauberk produced a pair of voiders, a skirt and a standard leaving well enough left over for ... something else I haven't thought of yet. Wink

I've never seen this image before. It makes such practical sense. I might just have to try it!

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 19 Oct, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: A historical image ...         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
I've never seen this image before. It makes such practical sense. I might just have to try it!


I agree ... as Bob said in reply to a post about using voiders:

Bob Reed wrote:
But not seperate individual sleeves, the best rig I saw was in that Italian image I described, which the fellow was wearing what would be similar to a haubergorn, if you trimmed off everything below the armpit. I've tried seperate mail sleeves with pauldrons, and I didn't find them to work well, they wanted to droop.

Were I going for Italian style voiders, it would be the short sleeved halter-top for me. When I saw that image, it was as if it were a revalation from on High.


A few people have posted about the problems of voiders either 'drooping' (especially if only affixed by points, not sewn onto an arming cote or gambeson), or that sewing them on is both annoying and not good for being able to wash the arming garment ... so this seems like such a sensible solution - not only that you wouldn't need to affix it to the arming garment, but also that the complete shoulder/neck area would hold the underside of the sleeves in position, and eliminate drooping. In other words, no attachment issues, no drooping issues, your arming garment can just be worn as-is, and is easier to wash. Sounds good to me!

However, I think I'd rather the straight line on the photo in the OP ... the corners on the historical image look like they could get caught, folded up, and so on. So: if anyone has any historical images on the design in the photo, that would be great!

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Mon 25 Oct, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Japanese "samurai" version of the very short haubergeon...the sashinuki kote



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