This is the suspension system, which I made:
[ Linked Image ]
I want to say, I have never seen such artifact throughout my research, so this suspension is entirely a product of my imagination and experience. The original could be something very close, but it could be something very different - but I have never seen any.
So, judging by the place of the top buckles on the authentic ones, a couple of years ago I decided that the cuisses should be hanged on an additional belt. But my experience with the old cuisses showed me that without shoulder-belts (ironically I call them "suspenders") the cuisses tend to slip down.
And for this project I just added the suspenders.
This looks remarkably like the Y-shaped suspension system used by Romanian soldiers in the Second World War. All down to the type of leather used. Well, the only difference is it isn't shaped like a Y.
Either way, your project is looking great thus far. I can't wait to see final pictures.
Either way, your project is looking great thus far. I can't wait to see final pictures.
The cuisses are ready. Finished, they look like this:
[ Linked Image ]
Some more pictures:
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
Some more pictures:
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[ Linked Image ]
And some pictures with the cuisses done:
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
Here, you can see the suspention system "in action"
Eeeeehr.......and I am dressed with my working clothes :D
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
Here, you can see the suspention system "in action"
Eeeeehr.......and I am dressed with my working clothes :D
This is like watching a medieval blacksmith at work! :D
Two things I am dying to know (and always have been) about such ottoman style armour:
1. What is the weight of a complete set, especially when compared to the plate heavy western style armour?
2. again compared to western armour, what were the defensive properties of such armours? I suppose it wasn't much help in stopping crossbow bolts or powerful arrows, let alone early firearms....but against cutting weapons it must have excelled. :confused:
For question #1, I hope Boris will weigh the complete set once it is finished.
For question #2....Boris, I don't suppose you'll be willing to do a test-to-destruction once done?? :p ;)
Two things I am dying to know (and always have been) about such ottoman style armour:
1. What is the weight of a complete set, especially when compared to the plate heavy western style armour?
2. again compared to western armour, what were the defensive properties of such armours? I suppose it wasn't much help in stopping crossbow bolts or powerful arrows, let alone early firearms....but against cutting weapons it must have excelled. :confused:
For question #1, I hope Boris will weigh the complete set once it is finished.
For question #2....Boris, I don't suppose you'll be willing to do a test-to-destruction once done?? :p ;)
I hope Boris won't mind if I write the weight of my armour: :)
http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=27550495
The torso piece (without the helmet and the basubands) is 14 kg. This kind of armour is excellent against cutting weapons, but western plate is better against hits, as a larger plate surface is more rigid. Against missile weapons, I don't know. The small plates can withstand arrows, but between them the arrow can get it. Even if it's riveted mail.
http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=27550495
The torso piece (without the helmet and the basubands) is 14 kg. This kind of armour is excellent against cutting weapons, but western plate is better against hits, as a larger plate surface is more rigid. Against missile weapons, I don't know. The small plates can withstand arrows, but between them the arrow can get it. Even if it's riveted mail.
| Tibor Szebenyi wrote: |
|
The torso piece (without the helmet and the basubands) is 14 kg. This kind of armour is excellent against cutting weapons, but western plate is better against hits, as a larger plate surface is more rigid. Against missile weapons, I don't know. The small plates can withstand arrows, but between them the arrow can get it. Even if it's riveted mail. |
How does it feel to have that much weight on? I imagine it's pretty taxing on the arms and shoulders....
| Quote: |
| How does it feel to have that much weight on? I imagine it's pretty taxing on the arms and shoulders....
|
It gets lighter and lighter as I am training in it. Yes, all its weight is on my shoulders, but a good gambeson helps a lot. Now it is quite comfortable and I can wear it all day. Of course not running or fencing all day, just walking around. It is a fantastic feeling to wear it while mounted and hear the wind screaming through the ear-holes of the helmet at a fast galopp. :cool:
By the way the helmet is far more heavy to wear for a long time. Maybe my neck is weak, so I have to get it off after 15-30min.
| Tibor Szebenyi wrote: |
|
The torso piece (without the helmet and the basubands) is 14 kg. |
Tibor, your armor is beautiful, but way too heavy. I have a maille of approximately same length that weighs only 9 kg. I think the problem is in the butted rings you are using. To make armor lighter you can:
1) use thinner wire on arms (and maybe back and hips)
2) make plates on the back of thinner metal (1-1.2 mm for back plates and 1.2-1.5 mm for front plates would be OK).
I would say that your armor should weigh between 9 and 11 kg. Though it is my educated guess, I don't know exact weight of any historical armor of that type. You helmet should weigh between 2 and 3.5 kg, most likely around 2.5 kg (for historically correct piece, for reproductions I would recommend 1.5 mm dome and 1-1.2 mm cheek and neck pieces). For comparison, my bascinet with 2mm dome weighs around 4.3 kg (with aventail and visor).
| Quote: |
| 1) use thinner wire on arms (and maybe back and hips)
2) make plates on the back of thinner metal (1-1.2 mm for back plates and 1.2-1.5 mm for front plates would be OK). |
Thanks for Your suggestions! However I will make my armour lighter if I get some information about the real ones. Because I don't know exact weight and plate thicknesses, too. I've used 1,6mm wire, it's quite thin. The plates are 1,5mm thick, but this thickness is needed to resist average bows. Maybe I could cut off some of the mail from the bottom, that would mean 1-2kg.
My helmet's dome is of 2mm plate, the neck and cheek pieces from 1,5mm.
| Tibor Szebenyi wrote: |
|
Thanks for Your suggestions! However I will make my armour lighter if I get some information about the real ones. Because I don't know exact weight and plate thicknesses, too. I've used 1,6mm wire, it's quite thin. The plates are 1,5mm thick, but this thickness is needed to resist average bows. Maybe I could cut off some of the mail from the bottom, that would mean 1-2kg. My helmet's dome is of 2mm plate, the neck and cheek pieces from 1,5mm. |
We've tested 90lb bow against lamellar made of 1mm mild steel at very short range. Not the best test out there, but still: none of the arrows could penetrate deep enough to inflict any wound. But the leather thongs connecting the plates together were torn with every hit, opening pretty large gaps for other arrows to come through. So 1.5 mm is more than enough. As one would expect to get hit in the chest more often than in the back, it is worth doing back plates thinner. Also smaller plates are more difficult to penetrate. You could also refer to average maille weights. The rule of thumb is that plates protect better than maille (no weak points like rivets). Though they need to be overlapped. So we can assume that maille-and-plate armor should weigh same or less than comparable maille. And one more idea. Your armor is pretty late in style. I wonder if it was historically made of heat treated steel. If yes, than 1-1.2mm steel for front and 0.8-1 mm for back can be used.
My maille is made of 10mm rings (inner diameter), wire is 1.8 and 1.6 mm depending on place and weighs only 9 kg, that is approximately 35% less than your armor. My plate harness with comparable coverage (no voiders though) weighs approximately the same (breast and back plates made of 1.5 mm, spaulders made of 1 and 1.5 mm steel, fauld made of 1 mm steel and tassets made of 1.5 and 1 mm steel).
We also made an armour test with lamellar and leather with the same results You mentioned:
http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=18980390
I don't know whether they made it heat-tempered or not. But before I lighten my armour I will seek information about the weight of real ones. ;)
Don't expect it in the case of eastern cavalry. :)
http://nomadok.gportal.hu/gindex.php?pg=18980390
I don't know whether they made it heat-tempered or not. But before I lighten my armour I will seek information about the weight of real ones. ;)
| Quote: |
| As one would expect to get hit in the chest more often than in the back, it is worth doing back plates thinner. |
Don't expect it in the case of eastern cavalry. :)
| Tibor Szebenyi wrote: |
| Don't expect it in the case of eastern cavalry. :) |
Still, when you advance, your speed is added to the speed of incoming arrows, when you retreet, it is subtracted.
I have a thin book about one museum in Moscow, Russia. There is nothing interesting except some pictures and a mention of 16 century Russian maille that "was made of 16 000 large riveted rings and weighs almost 12 kg".
Here is also a good link (mainly in Russian). http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuirass/kpd/opis/opis.html Numbers taken from there:
Bachterets: 12.3 kg
Bachterets: 5 kg (seems to be only a "vest")
Jushman: 14.8 kg
Jushman: 11.5 kg
Jushman: 12.3 kg
Very nice discussion, gents, during my absence. It was quite interesting for me.
And I think Zlatko has got answers to his questions. :idea:
Yes, of course, I will give the weight of the complete set when it's ready.
For now, I can give only the weight of the cuisses - without the belt it is 3.020 kg
And I think Zlatko has got answers to his questions. :idea:
Yes, of course, I will give the weight of the complete set when it's ready.
For now, I can give only the weight of the cuisses - without the belt it is 3.020 kg
Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Wed 22 Sep, 2010 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Somewhat contrary to the popular belief, the plates of the earlier (15th - first half of 16th C) Ottoman arm-guards, known in the Islamic world as bazubands were not connected with straps of maile (for example, like this 17th C Persian one from Askeri Muze in Istanbul, Turkey)
[ Linked Image ]
but were hinged together and were usually made of two (instead of three) plates, as you can see on the next picture in this post.
During the time when I was gradually up-grading the old yushman, I made my old cuisses (they were shown here previously) and started to make the bazubands. But when I decided to start a completely new project, I just left them aside.
So, unfortunately, I am not able to show you the early stages of the work on them - pattern-making process, drawing and cutting from the sheet-metal, bending and dishing, planishing and (what I think would be quite interesting) how I make my hand-made hinges.
Now, in the beginning, the bazubands look like this:
[ Linked Image ]
rusty and dirty, waiting for the blacksmith to come :lol: .
[ Linked Image ]
but were hinged together and were usually made of two (instead of three) plates, as you can see on the next picture in this post.
During the time when I was gradually up-grading the old yushman, I made my old cuisses (they were shown here previously) and started to make the bazubands. But when I decided to start a completely new project, I just left them aside.
So, unfortunately, I am not able to show you the early stages of the work on them - pattern-making process, drawing and cutting from the sheet-metal, bending and dishing, planishing and (what I think would be quite interesting) how I make my hand-made hinges.
Now, in the beginning, the bazubands look like this:
[ Linked Image ]
rusty and dirty, waiting for the blacksmith to come :lol: .
Beautiful!
I really thought that the hinged form is a later solution, and the mail-connected is earlier.
I really thought that the hinged form is a later solution, and the mail-connected is earlier.
Yeah, and I thought so, but the reality is a little bit different.
Actually, I still don't understand why they rejected the hinges, replacing them with maile-connectors. In my opinion, hinges offer more rigid construction and better protection.
From the other hand, maile-connected seems to be more flexible.
I should try this construction someday.......
Actually, I still don't understand why they rejected the hinges, replacing them with maile-connectors. In my opinion, hinges offer more rigid construction and better protection.
From the other hand, maile-connected seems to be more flexible.
I should try this construction someday.......
The mail-connected is weaker but it has an advantage. It can fit well on arms of different size and different padding. Maybe a hinged one has to be "personalized" as its form is fix, and it has to match the size of the wearer's arm (wrist, elbow, diameter, etc), or the same padding has to be used all time.
These
[ Linked Image ]
are the decorations for the bazubands.
Plates on the bottom row are completely cut-through, while top-left is cut partially, and top-right is waiting in the queue.
To be honest, I didn't expected how painstaking this task could be. I have started it last Thursday and still have a lot to do.
[ Linked Image ]
are the decorations for the bazubands.
Plates on the bottom row are completely cut-through, while top-left is cut partially, and top-right is waiting in the queue.
To be honest, I didn't expected how painstaking this task could be. I have started it last Thursday and still have a lot to do.
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