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Pete Vanderzwet
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 Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: Historically accurate chainmail - impossible to find? |
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I'm looking for historically accurate 12th century European chainmail, but it seems the only thing widely available is the butted Indian crap. I know Erik Schmidt used to produce some excellent stuff, but I don't think he's doing it any longer.
Does anyone know where I can buy some high quality chainmail that at least looks historically authentic?
Thanks.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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AFAIK Erik still produces mail commercially. But you might have to wait.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Historically accurate chainmail - impossible to find? |
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| Pete Vanderzwet wrote: | | it seems the only thing widely available is the butted Indian crap. |
Riveted maille is widely available. Both as round/flat rings with round rivets (often marketed as Roman mail) and flat ring with round or wedge shaped rivets. It's not anywhere near Erik's mail of course, but it's a lot more affordable and much, much better than butted maille. Go take a look at Get Dressed for Battle, Battle Merchant, Cap-a-pie or Icefalcon.
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Pete Vanderzwet
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the quick replies. Icefalcon's top quality mail looks decent, but for the 12th century I'm looking for an attached coif with an accurate ventail; something I've only seen Erik do properly. Hopefully I'm not aware of other vendors that sell this, and someone can point me in the right direction. I'm worried I might be forced to make my own, and I don't have a lot of confidence in my tailoring abilities, lol.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well i you have $20,000 or so laying around why not go with Erick?!? 
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'd go with a GDFB flat ring, wedge riveted hauberk, coif, and mittens, then get their riveting tool with a few packages of loose rings and work up my own. It would be cost effective and the resulting work would be reasonably accurate. Alot time and money invested that route....
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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The OP asked for "historically accurate" mail. Erik's is the only one that goes close to that description. If you only want riveted mail then there are tons of suppliers, but don't pretend that they have anything in common with museum examples.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | The OP asked for "historically accurate" mail. Erik's is the only one that goes close to that description. If you only want riveted mail then there are tons of suppliers, but don't pretend that they have anything in common with museum examples.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189 |
But the OP also said, "... but it seems the only thing widely available is the butted Indian crap" so it's a worthwhile addition to the topic not to be black and white and to mention the presence of riveted mail options in context. Your link provides such context.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Neil Langley
Location: Stockport, UK Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete Vanderzwet wrote: | | I'm looking for an attached coif with an accurate ventail; something I've only seen Erik do properly. Hopefully I'm not aware of other vendors that sell this, and someone can point me in the right direction. I'm worried I might be forced to make my own, and I don't have a lot of confidence in my tailoring abilities, lol. |
Well, Cap-a-pie offer a custom tailoring service in conjunction with Gavin Jones (see 'The Maille Tailor': http://www.capapie.co.uk/custom.html) that may suit you without breaking the bank. I have recently purchased a very nice standard from Mark and found him to be incredibly helpful - so I would get in touch and see what he can do for you.
Neil.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just not buy ANY mail. It's not as if it's required to assemble a quality kit. Certainly not every armed man owned the stuff. Perhaps most did not. If I ever put together a kit from the later 11th. C. I would just not have mail. Just do with cloth protection, which indeed can be done well, though itself commanding a significant cost. Quality isn't cheap.
I'm not so sure carrying a sword with no mail would be appropriate but a spear and shield may be plausable.
I don't get why so many folks opt for the admittedly very ahistorical mail anyway- especially when said very ahistorical mail can cost hundreds of dollars. It's just not much "bang for your buck".
I'm thankful for folks like Dan are here to tell it like it is. Otherwise, I could have easily been fooled into thinking that the riveted stuff was fairly close to historical specimens.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sat 14 Aug, 2010 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | I don't get why so many folks opt for the admittedly very ahistorical mail anyway- especially when said very ahistorical mail can cost hundreds of dollars. It's just not much "bang for your buck". |
Spending 20,000-25,000 dollar on an Erik D.S. hauberk just for reenactment or SCA isn't much bang for your buck either.
Your argument makes as little sense as saying that people should only buy Albion Museum Line swords and simply not bother with anything else.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
I don't get why so many folks opt for the admittedly very ahistorical mail anyway- especially when said very ahistorical mail can cost hundreds of dollars. It's just not much "bang for your buck".
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Well some like me have " low standards " and just want maille, even if it's not authentic: When seen at more than 20 feet no one but an expert would know the difference.
If I have to chose between $20,000 authentic maille that will take 5 years to make, no maille at all versus functional riveted or even, " the horror " , welded stainless steel  then I will go for the modern non-authentic maille as it's the only kind I can realistically afford or be able to find.  
By the way Jeremy I have no problem with your preferences or choice here for authentic or nothing, I'm just " ranting " 
about my personal take on it and what makes me happy.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
I don't get why so many folks opt for the admittedly very ahistorical mail anyway- especially when said very ahistorical mail can cost hundreds of dollars. It's just not much "bang for your buck".
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Well some like me have " low standards " and just want maille, even if it's not authentic: When seen at more than 20 feet no one but an expert would know the difference.
If I have to chose between $20,000 authentic maille that will take 5 years to make, no maille at all versus functional riveted or even, " the horror " , welded stainless steel then I will go for the modern non-authentic maille as it's the only kind I can realistically afford or be able to find.
By the way Jeremy I have no problem with your preferences or choice here for authentic or nothing, I'm just " ranting "
about my personal take on it and what makes me happy. |
Oh I know Jean! I can tell by your collection you know just a teeny bit about quality.
Folks just need to know what they are getting and that's why I find Dan's approach refreshing. It's this level of clarity that helps folks make informed decisions about what they want to spend their money on. I am thankful for finding myArmoury and the knowledgable folks here years back. Otherwise, I could have spent hundreds on low end "battle ready" arms- you know the stuff found in those mail order gun and knife magazines.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
Oh I know Jean! I can tell by your collection you know just a teeny bit about quality.
Folks just need to know what they are getting and that's why I find Dan's approach refreshing. It's this level of clarity that helps folks make informed decisions about what they want to spend their money on. I am thankful for finding myArmoury and the knowledgable folks here years back. Otherwise, I could have spent hundreds on low end "battle ready" arms- you know the stuff found in those mail order gun and knife magazines. |
A context is everything. 
For sure there is a whole wide spectrum of " choices " between knowing nothing and being happy with very low quality kit and the other extreme ( legitimate extreme ) of wanting only the best: But it's always good to know enough to know when one is making compromises to authenticity or quality for the reasons of price or availability.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Ok, so any easy way to get 'historicaly accurate' maille is either A: Go back in time, or B: make it from scratch by and for yourself.
Also, I myself have frequently sent Erik many a message regarding maille (I'll totaly have a full kit of it one day!) and he's seems more then happy to help with any queries one may have.
Oh, and for US$20,000 (what's that, about AUS$25,500?), you've got an heirloom on your hands!
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He's clearly pointing out how awesome real maille is!
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Pete Vanderzwet
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Does Erik make his rings, or are they produced commercially somewhere?
Of course $20,000 is a little extreme, but I was/am prepared to pay a few thousand.
I don't know why the commercially done maille is such, well, crap. None of it looks even remotely accurate, from ring size to fitting and design. Sam your signature shows how ventails were done, why is it so difficult to do this accurately with even sub-par materials? It's a design issue here; it just seems they put ZERO effort into it.
I wouldn't even mind buying some commercially made stuff if it at least looked close to the real thing. I've never seen any that does. Even Kingdom of Heaven did a reasonably good job, and that was PVC. It's like they either haven't done research to determine how the original stuff looked, or they simply don't care. My bet it's the latter.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Pete Vanderzwet wrote: | | I wouldn't even mind buying some commercially made stuff if it at least looked close to the real thing. I've never seen any that does. Even Kingdom of Heaven did a reasonably good job, and that was PVC. It's like they either haven't done research to determine how the original stuff looked, or they simply don't care. My bet it's the latter. |
The problem is in the fitting. Maille is tailored to fit you like a glove. The majority of commercially available maille comes in standard sizes. What you need to do is buy one of those along with a big bag of rings and a pair of pliers and tailor it to fit you. I asked some questions about maille coifs recently and the responses were very interesing. I suggest you read that thread.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 15 Aug, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete Vanderzwet wrote: | | Does Erik make his rings, or are they produced commercially somewhere? |
He makes his own rveted rings and IIRC usually buys the punched ones from Seastrom.
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Ron Reimer
Location: Australia Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Are you using it for combat?I wear a suit of butted mail, the rings are spring steel and quite durable.Mail is very adaptable and great to wear.We get the rings from a spring works locally, they simply set the machine to cut the springs at one turn,then we spend lots of hours with pliers and rings knitting mail.
If you want to go an alternate route until you get your chain , you could take a look at theMaciejowski Bible and use quilted armour or gambeson over gambeson, also mentioned in the Speculum Regale (AKA the King's Mirror).Quilted armour was used by many social classes so I think you should have few problems with documenting sword use with this armour.
Ron
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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I think there is real market potential in producing mail in a segment between the indian flat riveted rings and the "Erik Schmid" handdrawn super-accurate stuff.
The indian flat stuff seems very "flat". I would like to see rings that have a more evenly distributed cross section
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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This is a standard topic