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Robert Rootslane
Location: Estonia Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 72
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 Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: Any gauntlets from ancient greek times? |
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Hi!
A friend of mine asked me to do a bit of a research. He is interested if the macedonians or greeks in Alexanders army, or in some other army in that time wore any kind of gauntlets or maby some other armor to protect their fingers and hands.
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hoo, not that I've ever seen. Greaves are common, but guards for the arms and thighs were comparatively rare. There is a nice hinged foot guard in the British Museum, REALLY rare. But nothing Greek for the hands.
There *might* be some sort of handguard with Persian or Parthian cataphract armor (heavy cavalry), maybe just a plate for the back of the hand but possibly something more substantial. It's just not something I've researched, so I don't know.
Come to think of it, I seem to recall some sort of a guard for the left hand for some armored Hellenistic cavalry, since they didn't carry shields. But again, I'm not sure.
Pretty sure that soft leather gloves did exist, though they were also quite uncommon, and they weren't armor.
Sorry, not much to go on!
Matthew
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Reece Nelson
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: greek hand armour |
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I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of hand protection. The guards on there swords are not very big, and I imagine you would get poped on the hands a lot.
A lot of viking reenactors wear padded gloves, but none of the texts or art depict of them wearing any sort of hand protection that I'v seen.
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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that's because most of us have a 9-5 day job that we use our hands for.  the evidence just isn't there for time period gauntlets
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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What about this thing in Olympus? I've been meaning to ask about it; it is labeled as a 'gauntlet', if the source I got it from is to be believed.
 Attachment: 97.39 KB
jamesarlen.com
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | Come to think of it, I seem to recall some sort of a guard for the left hand for some armored Hellenistic cavalry, since they didn't carry shields. But again, I'm not sure. |
You might be thinking of Xenophon. He proposes a piece of protection either for the hand or forearm for cavalrymen but it is in the context of a hypothetical invention, not an existing item that they were using. He also suggests cutting out part of the right shoulder of the cuirass to make it easier to throw a javelin, but I'm not aware of any extant cuirasses that have this type of modification.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hands, interestingly enough, is probably the last part of the body to be armoured...
For sparring, gloves are essential. In periods where hand protection was not common (like anything untill late 14th c, if not in full armour...) , simply consider it safety equipment when fighting, like tooth guards or cups.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | What about this thing in Olympus? I've been meaning to ask about it; it is labeled as a 'gauntlet', if the source I got it from is to be believed. |
Oh, that's interesting! Hard to be sure without trying it on. But if it's a gauntlet, it seems to be for the *left* hand, which suggests a rein hand guard, since infantry would have a shield.
Ancient sword guards were not really designed for parrying, since that's what a shield was for.
Matthew
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | What about this thing in Olympus? I've been meaning to ask about it; it is labeled as a 'gauntlet', if the source I got it from is to be believed. |
In K. Kristiansen, "The tale of the sword - swords and swordfighters in Bronze Age Europe", Oxford Journal of Archaeology 21(4) 319-332 (2002), I find the following footnote:
"The Mycenaean chiefly warriors employed specially designed hand-protectors of bronze (Senaki-Sakellariou 1985, pl. IX, T.15, 2780), in addition to the full armoour (cuirass, greaves, helmet, etc.) known from Dendra"
The reference is to: SENAKI-SAKELLARIOU, A. 1985: Les tombes a` chambre de Myce`nes. Fouilles de Chr. Tsountas (1887–1898) (Paris). A quick search doesn't find this either in my local library or on www.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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First I've heard of this. There definitely wasn't any hand protection found at Dendra.
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Any gauntlets from ancient greek times? |
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| Robert Rootslane wrote: | Hi!
A friend of mine asked me to do a bit of a research. He is interested if the macedonians or greeks in Alexanders army, or in some other army in that time wore any kind of gauntlets or maby some other armor to protect their fingers and hands. |
As far as I know, hand armour is almost unknown before the middle ages. Early on the Greeks made bronze plate for almost every body part, but I've never seen an ancient Greek gauntlet.
The oldest surviving gauntlet I know of is this one, said to be 6th/7th century Persian. The banded armour which some ancient soldiers wore on their arms might occasionally have covered the hands but I don't know of proof. Xenophon mentions it in the 4th century BCE and there is some artistic evidence from around that period; it was definitely used in the Hellenistic age.
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Christopher H
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S. Jansone
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting website.
But regarding main question- never have meet with additional gauntlets in Macedonian army. Some changes are in late Hellenistic armies, when there are more Eastern influence- then maybe we could start to talk about Persian inspired foregoer, but I have never met anything like that in Alexander's army.
Would be glad to see if anyone has any evidence.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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The item was originally misidentified as ankle protection. I won't believe that it is hand armour until some who actually knows something about armour personally examines it.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jul, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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HOLY CRAP!  Seen at those other angles, it really does look like a gauntlet! It sure ain't no ankle guard.
jamesarlen.com
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Johann M
Location: London Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | | HOLY CRAP! Seen at those other angles, it really does look like a gauntlet! It sure ain't no ankle guard. |
Agreed, it would seem to work easier as hand protection than for the ankle. <ore photos from different angles would be nice.
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This is a standard topic