[Zlatko Vlašic]

After years spending on just reading about it on this site and others, I am finally able (financially) to take the plunge and obtain my very first sword.

Obviously, I have zero experience with this sort of thing - starting from manufacturers, vendors, little tricks and issues I should check before buying etc.

All I know is what I want - and that is a mid 16th to early 17th century type side sword/cut-and-thrust sword.
And I also know that this being my first sword, I should not spend too much money on it - a sensible 200-300$ at most. And after I get my first blade, we'll see where this hobby of mine takes me.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a great deficit of decent side sword/cut-and-thrust swords on the market, especially at the 200-300$ price range (compared to say viking or roman swords which seem to be everywhere).

In any case, I have sort of narrowed down my preferences to these three options:

1. Munich cut and thrust sword by Windlass
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=5011...rust+Sword

Looks great, seems sturdy, windlass is apparently solid manufacturer (is it really?!), blade seems to have a lot of presence and is not fullered (which should mean that it will not be whippy right?).....

2. Saxon Hilt Cut and Thrust by Windlass
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...rust+Sword

Looks pretty much the same thing as number 1, the blade to me even looks the same, but I read somewhere that it is too whippy. Does anybody have any first hand experience with this sword??
I actually prefer this one to the Munich sword, I like the guard better.

3. Final option, and to me the least desirable, is to get a composite sword from darkwood armoury, using an english or german 2 port cross, like this
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_...cts_id=170

Obviously, this is my least desired option, since it seems to be a little to pricey for a first time sword, and I would only go for this if all else fails. Also, I don't know if they sharpen the blades?

I would greatly appreciate any advice and firsthand experience from other users.

[Nathan Robinson]

#2, the Saxon Hilt Cut and Thrust by Windlass is a terrible sword. The hilt is terribly inaccurate and the dynamics are very bad. I'd take it off the list immediately. It's of a very, very different form than #1... not sure why you think they are the same.

[Zlatko Vlašic]

All I have are the small pictures on the manufacturers and vendors sites - the blades do look similar, that's all. It could be that the pictures are no good, and ofcourse I have very little experience so I probably overlook important details that distinguish them.

All right, so #2 is no good.....

[Nathan Robinson]

[Jim Mearkle]

Darkwood's specialty is training blunts. If you wanted to use it for sparring, I'd definitely recommend it. I don't know if you can get a sharp blade from them, but it wouldn't hurt to ask,

One advantage is customization. Want a heavier or lighter pommel? Easily done. Want a blued hilt? Well it will cost a bit more, but again, easily done. Same with grips, blade, quillon shape, etc.

A disadvantage is, he doesn't usually do direct reproductions of historic weapons, if that is what you want.

I have a shell hilt I bought from him probably 15 years ago. It's still in good shape, despite being my primary fencing sword for 10 of those years.

[Dan P]

[Sean Flynt]

The Saxon blade is fine. The hilt is the problem. I haven't handled the "Munich" but I would guess that it's a good introduction to collecting. The grip is longer than it should be, but that's not a huge problem and it's easily fixed if you ever want to start working on swords. You could also blue the hilt, which was typical for this type. The blade is thinner than it should be, but I doubt you'll notice that unless comparing directly with an outstanding reproduction or original of the type.

[Josh MacNeil]

Nathan - I'm curious about your impressions of the MRL Saxon Hilt, as I've yet to handle it, nor am I super familiar with the type, but I recall seeing a photo of a group of antique swords of similar types with one in particular bearing a striking resemblance to the MRL one in another thread. I'll have to do some digging, but I'm certain I saw it here somewhere and thinking, "hey that looks like the Windlass one." What exactly is it that makes the hilt so terrible?

-JM

[Nathan Robinson]

The Windlass Saxon sword's hilt details, proportions, size, etc. are quite bad.

[Hadrian Coffin]

Good evening,
A few more specifics would really help determine what sword would be best for you. Do you plan on cutting with the sword? Wearing it around Renaissance Festivals? Participating in Living History? Practicing Western Martial Arts (solo or with a partner)? Fighting in re-enactment battles? Decorating your wall? etc. etc.
Knowing what you plan on doing with the sword will help us give you better advice. Obviously you can't fight in a re-enactment with a sharp blade... nor can you cut with a blunt. The various manufacturers each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
The more you study the sword, the more specific your needs, and taste, will become. As such a first sword is often looked at later in a "Why on earth did I buy this?" manner. Determining your exact needs and wants beforehand can help mitigate this problem later on.

I will now discuss the makers you brought up, and make any suggestions I can...
I will start with your foremost, Museum Replicas Limited. MRL has a history of being a hit and miss affair, they have made some wonderful pieces... and some complete rubbish. As such MRL has a tendency to get a wide variety of recommendation, from high praise to bitter regret. Having seen a wide variety of their products over the years I have to say they are better than many of the other low end makers... in certain ways. Some of MRL's designs are okay, but most are pretty anachronistic. Often blending elements from several different centuries. Most of MRL's pieces however are made of decent material, but poorly assembled. My verdict is that their pieces can be made fantastic, but require a bit of work to reach that. The handle is often wrong in every way, from length to cover material, and requires replacement.Hilt fittings are generally poor in terms of looks and fit (they will become loose and rattle), they can be alright, but generally require major modification in structure and design. The blades are decently made and fairly well heat-treated, details such as ricassos and geometry are often erroneous -stay away from these models- blades that are correct in structure can be superb. With a little hand sanding, sharpening, and proper polish these blades are some of the best in the low end market.
I will briefly mention the two other big names in this market. Hanwei/Cas Iberia and Cold Steel. Hanwei is 99% rubbish, they have far better design than MRL but are poorly constructed... flimsy... the handles and scabbards are often constructed of plastic. Cold Steel is also rubbish poor design, over built, and still poorly constructed.
Darkwood is a large step up from any of the aforementioned makers. The pieces are decently made and contain a decent level of design. Darkwood bridges the gap between the low end market (MRL, Hanwei, Cold Steel, etc.) and the high end production market (A&A, Albion, Atrim, etc.)
Another you didn't mention that might be a good bet is Del Tin. They used to be carried by MRL, until MRL became solely Windlass Steelcrafts. Most of MRL's designs are copies of Del Tin designs (or at least used to be). Del Tin tends to be better than MRL in terms of design and construction... but are notoriously heavy and soft (not particularly well heat-treated). If you have the ability to thin the various components down you can make a very nice sword.
With out more details I cannot give really any more advice.
Cheers,
Hadrian

[Zlatko Vlašic]

[Chad Arnow]

[Luka Borscak]

Del Tin hardness is 50Hrc, definitely higher than both Windlass, Hanwei and Gen2, only new Hanwei Tinkers are harder, Darkswords claim to be 53Hrc etc... But 50 is definitely not soft, once sharpened well it holds edge very good and durability of Del Tin blades is fantastic. I have 2 and plan to buy more, if you handle a Del Tin before buying and you feel it's a good handling design, than it will be an excelent sword. I have used all these swords except Darksword and these are my observations.

[Hal Siegel]

[Nathan Robinson]

careful...

[Hadrian Coffin]

[Zlatko Vlašic]

[Luka Borscak]

Are you aware of this: http://www.replikart.com/ ? He can get anything by Del Tin, Hanwei, Viktor Berbekucz and he has some windlass stuff. Web catalog is outdated, you should call and ask what he has in style you like. I think he has in stock Hanwei sidesword and Cromwell, both cut and thrust 17th century swords.

If you don't know about berbekucz, here is his site: http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/

[Jim Mearkle]

Since you are in Europe, have you looked at Armour Class (http://www.armourclass.com/) or other makers on your side of the pond?

[Sander Marechal]