[Colt Reeves]

This is something that came up while watching Eric Fick's video showing him fighting in this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19470

In the video it says "Unarmored Longsword versus Armored Longsword" (Or vica-versa, it doesn't matter). Now, something I've been thinking about off and on since I found Western Martial Arts was the whole half-swording versus not half-swording. Though it may be demonstrated in the old manuscripts as these techniques being for this and these techniques being for that, I sort of don't feel that way. Going to half-sword is an excellent way to handle someone up close or defend a doorway, etc, regardless of armor or lackthereof. I also note various people here and there throughout the net doing things exactly like that.

What I'm leading up to here is this: Is claiming half-swording to be for use in armor and... non-half-swording to be for use without really a valid thing to say? Or rather, is it right to say half-swording=armored combat, while standard=unarmored?

I personally don't think so, but this is more a fine detail on terms and their uses and I thought I'd get the opinions of those who are in the Western Martial Arts community and not on the outside like me. (This comes back to something Clements of ARMA said about it not being sword-fighting, but fighting with swords. Half-swording to me is just part of the system that deals with special situations, the most obvious being against armored opponents. It isn't a whole 'nother animal that should be classified as "Armored Fighting".)

[Aleksei Sosnovski]

Halfswording without armor (more precisely without gauntlets) is very dangerous. If I had an opponent who would attempt to half-sword without gauntlets, I would keep him at a distance and try to cut his hands. Though I guess there are a lot of pictures in historical fighting manuals of knights without gauntlets using halfswording. As I see it halfsording is a thing to use against an armored opponent, whether you yourself are armored or not. However if you are unarmored you should find a proper moment to get close to your opponent and only then you should use halfswording and wrestling techniques (especially wrestling because here unarmored person has some advantage because he is faster). If you start in halfswording stance you are asking for your hands to be cut and you also tell your opponent "beware, now I want to get close to you". On the contrary, if you are armored and your opponent is not, you should not use halfswording. You should keep your opponent at bay, because he cannot harm you by cuts while you can harm him, and long-distance thrusts are less accurate and are easier for you to deflect. If both fighters are unarmored halfswording is useful when you suddenly find yourself (or when you intentionally get yourself) so close to your opponent that it is very difficult to use your sword in a "normal" way. Just my 2 cents.

[Craig Peters]

A lot of Talhoffer's plays in his 1467 manual are unarmoured uses of the half sword. A lot of the time though, it seems to be employed in krieg, and it's probably safer to use at close quarters than longer range.

[Andrew Maxwell]

Going to the halfsword if you are unarmoured and at wide measure is asking to be killed, imho. You don't have the range and you don't have the defence to make up for it.

Otoh, it works well when you get in close as Aleksei and Craig have mentioned; you just need to get used to changing grip quickly.

[Elling Polden]

Going to halfsword means forfeiting your range. This in turn gives the opponenet a chance to strike you. In armoured fighting, this strike will most likely not affect you that much, even if it hits. In unarmoued fighting, you will have lost the fight.

So, basically, it still works. However, striking unarmoued foes works so much better that it is no longer recomended

[David E. Farrell]

To the OP: I look at the whole 'halfsword' vs 'standard' thing this way:

it's a system (I study Fiore, FWIW), the 'spada en arme' section tells you a great deal about how to combat someone in armour while also illustrating how one can use your armour to your advantage. The unarmoured material shows how to deal with an opponent who is out of armour (and simultaneously demonstrates things you'll likely want to do while out of armour). This means that a technique shown in one setting can and should be used in another *when appropriate*.

For example, Fiore shows going to the halfsword in the 'punta curta' or 'punta falsa' play (feint with a strong blow to one side, drawing a strong parry, then turn the sword to thrust to the other side using a half sword grip)- in the unarmoured sword in two hands material. And you know what? The same play works with a pollaxe, and with a sword when armoured.

So in this case, I'll agree with Clements: it really is just fighting with swords (or spears, or axes, etc)... in the medieval systems, at least (certainly within systems like Fiore's).

[Jason G. Smith]

[Greg Mele]

Indeed he does. OTOH, this also means that he is advising coming into this armoured play from a traditional, two-handed grip.

[David Teague]

Hello All,

In the "German" system we have halfswording moves with longsword, messer, and arming sword, but as noted by Craig it happens well within measure (kreig) .

They tend to be used to exert overpowering force at speed to allow ones hands to remain safe and counter a incoming threat.

Longsword example: Codex Wallerstein. (Not verbatim) When a opponent attempts to wind into the upper hanger to thrust to your face, grab your sword by the mids and wind to your left and down. Thrust to the testicles. ( Now verbatim) This is a very good trick.

Messer example: Johannes Lecküchner: (Not verbatim) From a low guard, when a opponent attempts to strike a diagonal cut to your head, strike his incoming flat with a thumb grip cross stroke and if he puts enough pressure on the blade to keep you from hitting him, disengage to the other side while hooking your hilt over his blade and pinning his flat on your wrist, grab the center of your blade with your left hand and thrust to his face. Should he back up, place your right hand on the blade and follow him with a blow to his head with the hilt.

Both techniques are from manuals in the "German" system dealing with fighting in street clothes of the era. Both use halfswording. There are others, but... they have their place and time.

Cheers,

David

[Eric Fick]

Wow, I didn't expect anything to come from the unarmoured vs. Armoured assignments in the videos.

It should be noted that this "assignment" was simply to address the advantages vs disadvantages in the fight. This did include the type of hits that would be deemed effective versus a given combatant. Also, for training purposes this would allow our guys to compare the obvious effects of armoured protection versus the mobility, vision and endurance of an unarmoured or lightly armoured combatant. Additionally this was a byproduct of equipment available and the participants experience levels, however, it did make for a fun time (It made me work a TON harder!)

This was not intended to prevent either combatant from using Sword in two hands or Half sword techniques, however, the effectiveness of the chosen style was ultimately influenced by this "assignment"

I agree with the statements above regarding the use of both "sword in two hands" and "half sword" techniques being interchangeable in both harnesfechten and blosfechten or armoured or unarmoured combat. some examples should be seen in the videos (even if they are not the best or cleanest transitions)

[Colt Reeves]

Well, I'm glad to see this is actually something of interest and there are a number of slightly different viewpoints at work here. I get the impression that my viewpoint is off and since most half-swording is done in armor, I'm kind of barking up the wrong tree saying that "armored longswording" is a bad term. Good to know.

On a related topic, I understand that one would not want to go against an opponent by starting in the half-sword guards, but rather be better off sticking to the standard techniques and switching to half-sword as needed.

On the other hand I could see where starting with something like Archer or Bastard Cross might not be so bad if you could let go quickly if needed. (Since these two are similar to Plow and... the one I don't know the name of, but with one hand on the blade.) Seems like something that one could do if they were tired or expected to be holding a ready position for some time, somewhat like the positions a modern "operator" (SWAT, Special Forces, etc) might take if they had to hold a pistol on someone for a while.

[Jason G. Smith]

[David E. Farrell]

Thanks for the clarification Jason.

[Bill Grandy]