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Hong-jin Ji





Joined: 10 Sep 2006
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Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 05 Apr, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: My indo-Persian harness         Reply with quote

My indo-Persian Harness.
all i made. Bazuband, turban helm is not.

I like Iranian, Russia-Slavic, Turkish, indian Harness.
Mail ring is 2mm thickness. ID 9mm. Spear thrust& sword cuting Can prevent. However, heavier than Historical Piece.

mail Helmet is Flat ring&Machine welded mail. Weight is 2.6kg. Indian <Kulah Zirah> mail helm.



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Indian Kulah Zirah helmet

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All nation is MEIN!!!

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With CS shamshir. Handle Broken. I made Full-tang handle

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Korazin armour

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Arabic Smile

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THIS IS IRANIAN!!! [ Download ]

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Korazin Plate&Mail armour [ Download ]

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Indo-Persian "Zirah Bagtar" Full Harness [ Download ]
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Allan, even with such pieces, there is not any actual proof that the harnesses that they were originally incorporated with did not have gorgets. Most of these transitional sallets do not have accompanying armor that we can use to understand the importance of these neck plates on the helms. So it's sort of a circular argument with these examples, and I would shy away from them as evidence that helms with incorporated articulating neck pieces replaced gorgets as a whole.


Gregory, re read what I said, I didn't say that helmets with gorgets replaced gorgets I said that multi lame gorgets replaced the bevor with gorget like back plate. Close helmets with neck lames seem to occure by about 1515 -1520 ( the helmet of the puffed and slashed armour of Wilhelm von Roggensdorf made by Koleman Helmschmid is and example that comes to mid .c1520) While the locking armet requireing a gorget to be worn was around by 1510 ( the Wladislas armour c.1510 is the earliest example of a locking armet I can come up with off the top of my head ) and close helmets were clearly worn with gorgets simply looking at the large number of survivals.


Quote:
John, I'm not too sure there's a lot of documentation for early 16th century gorgets being pointed too.


I think Johns refering to the gorget being used as an attchement point for arms, shoulders or both. Heres a gorget from Wade Allan's excellent collection that dates from 1515-1520 that clearly had the pauldrons buckled to it http://allenantiques.com/A-127.html. The Wldaislas gorget viewable on page 179 of AAOTMK and dated to 1510 has posts to accept its one unit pauldron/arm assemblies.


Hong, excellent harness, I love Indo Persian, Ottoman Turkish armour.
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Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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Posts: 143

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Hong-jin Ji, very cool armour.
you btw do talk on Yoda like purpose?

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Allan,

Yup, totally misread what you said. In fact, both points you refer to in my previous post make little sense due to my misinterpretation. I was typing on a bottle of wine. doh Pointing pauldrons to the gorget through buckles is definitely very common, and as far as I know is the best way to get the job done. I was only considering the pointing with laces when I read it last night... Aye, yeah. Funny what a bit of drink does to the senses! Razz

-Gregory

My Flickr Galleries - Travel, Nature & Things
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Funny what a bit of drink does to the senses!


Been there, done that.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, pointing pauldrons or full arms to the gorget seems like a good idea if the gorget itself is very securely pointed or strapped to breast plate/back plate or to the foundation garments: Securely attached pauldrons to a gorget just sitting on the shoulders/neck by gravity could be very much a hazard if the armour is grabbed when the range is close and things get down to wresting ! I can imagine many bad things happening to the wearer from having his neck broken, movement jammed or restricted with the armour locked up in a disadvantageous way.

In other words having one's armour securely pointed is much more than just being able to wear it walking around, it also has to be secure if pulled or pushed on or if doing very acrobatic movements including falling off one's horse and then being able to get up and fight without having one's armour completely disordered and being an impediment to moving.

( Hmmmmmm ...... now that is one loooooooooonnnnng run-off sentence ..... Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:

Would a gorget be appropraite under a bevor? for a late 15th century?


Not a plate one. Most people wear maille standards under bevors in the 15th century. Mine has a leather back to make it stand up and so the maille doesn't chafe my neck.

Certainly for your harness, a plate gorget is not right.
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Not a plate one.


Zach, twords the end of the century simple base plate gorgets were worn with bevors. See this example from the originals album here on myArmoury that I posted earlier in the thread http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1 . I have also seen other later 15th century harness with a simple base plate gorget and bevor including one suit disassembled ( I got to examine the components of that one ). Based on the existing examples i've seen including the one I personally examined, a simple base plate gorget would be appropriate for Chris's harness.
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 10:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Quote:
Not a plate one.


Zach, twords the end of the century simple base plate gorgets were worn with bevors. See this example from the originals album here on myArmoury that I posted earlier in the thread http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1 . I have also seen other later 15th century harness with a simple base plate gorget and bevor including one suit disassembled ( I got to examine the components of that one ). Based on the existing examples i've seen including the one I personally examined, a simple base plate gorget would be appropriate for Chris's harness.


The harness posted looks like a composite armour to me. It just doesn't fit together right. The legs don't match the rest of the harness either, and look early 16th century to me.

Where is that particular harness from?
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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know although most of the pics in the gallery are from Hermmans auctions. As I said i've seen several others including the one I got to handle personally that had a simple front and back plate gorget. Two of the other examples i've seen were displayed with bevor, maille standard and simple gorget. The example I got to examine hands on the gorget has straps for attaching the large pauldrons to, so i've theorized that perhaps the purpose of the simple gorgets in these late harness ( they were all post 1485 ) was not defensive but the begning of the change to making the gorget the anchor point for shoulder and or arm defenses that would become pretty much the norm by 1510 rather than pointing, the reasons for this I can only guess at but perhaps it was founf to provide better stability for the shoulder defenses. The switch to attching shoulder defenses at the gorget rather than pointing was apparently complete by 1510 as most all fine plate harness that I can think of off the top of my head were using it ( see the afore mentioned Wladisla harness dated 1510 ) although by that time locking armets were common on harness and require a multi lame gorget to use as well.

As far as date of the harness pictured, I was left with a far different date impresion, not 16th century, but due to the lack of abundant fluting and file work but typical of Italian export work of the later 15th century. While composite is of course always possible and was done in period as well as later to construct harness for museums http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1 the fluting on the legs is rather subdued as on the rest of the harness so I will not rule out either option.
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
While composite is of course always possible and was done in period as well as later to construct harness for museums.


For this reason I would always use paintings and Sculptures as a guide rather than armours. You're right composites where made in period, but that could mean the difference between 1490 and 1510, which is what we're talking about.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
For this reason I would always use paintings and Sculptures


Well thats interesting, as i've seen on threads here it stated not to rely to much on artwork as artistic license is a big factor. I think i'll be sticking to the hundereds of pieces of original material i've owned over the years, the hundereds more i've been allowed to personally hands on examine, the museum trips and artwork all together to draw my conslusions from rather than a single source. It worked for me so far. I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that original material is to be discarded as a resource as you say.
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not disregard it, but I know its limitations. It is known that there are few intact harnesses left from the late 15th century. To base Ideas of the compostition of such harnesses from possible composites is looking to them to provide too much information. There is no way a probably composite armour can reliably teach us about the composition of armour. It can teach us form, and function, but for an accurate timeline of Harness composition we must look elsewhere.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no way a probably composite


Site proof please of your source for sited harness being composite and as I stated now two previous times i've seen others including handeling the components of one personally.


Quote:
For this reason I would always use paintings




Quote:
I do not disregard it


These two statements stand in opposition to each other.
This thread is now fully off course so have fun, i'm stepping out to allow it to return to its proper course.


Last edited by Allan Senefelder on Wed 07 Apr, 2010 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://s596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/reena...E%20Faces/ still need to fill in the gaps. have a few kits started to do so, but not finished enough to show. some kits shown have missing pieces as well that are started... one day I'll get to finish them all.
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice to have some picture additions besides all the interesting discussion. Hope to be able to contribute an early 14th cent kit sometime this year.
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Dan Rosen




Location: Providence
Joined: 21 Jan 2010

Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sat 10 Apr, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a picture of me from Reenactorfest: Chicago from this past February.

Early 1570's English.

The doublet and hose are handsewn, the cap is knit and fulled wool. All wool and linen.

The sword's a little bit late for my clothing (dates from around 1590-ish), but I was testing out my hanger after a repair.


-Dan Rosen

"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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Gert-Jan Beukers




Location: Voorhout, The Netherlands
Joined: 02 Mar 2009

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is my new late-15th century kit. The brigandine is from Steel mastery, but rivets are too big and made of stainless steel...so I have to replace 250+ rivets for 'authentic' ones.

The helmet is a black sallet made by Jiri Krondak.

Before I forget, don't mention the crappy quality of my cell phone XD



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Correct me if I'm wrong.... I'm dutch
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Hendrik De Coster




Location: Belgium
Joined: 20 Jan 2007

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Mon 12 Apr, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

got my breastplate and arms this weekend









enjoy!
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Mon 12 Apr, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Armour         Reply with quote

Hendrik Im lovin' you're kit! Big Grin May I ask who the armourer was?
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