[Sander Marechal]

Yesterday me and a couple of friends from my WMA group went shopping for arms & armour. I found a nice looking and feeling gambeson, but I have a couple of questions.

My original plan was to buy a gambeson that I could use for both my kits: a 1250-ish Hospitallers kit and my mid-14th century kit. I was looking for something that came to a few inches above my knees with long sleeves. I found this one (page in Dutch, sorry, but there are images): http://www.zwaardenvolk.nl/index.php?option=c...&hit=1

For me, that gambeson fits a little bit snugger and is a little bit longer than it fits the guy in the picture. It's made from rough linen with smooth linen inside. It's a bit stiff, with a thickness varying between 1 and 2 centimeters. I can move well in it though. The padding is quite stiff as well, not fluffly like some cotton/batting padded gambesons. It feels like it's excellent for WMA practice with blunt steel swords.

I know that it's not quite long enough for 1250 and that a gambeson from that period should not be front-opening but that will be hidden by the hauberk and long black surcoat.

I also tried on some 14th century plate arms to see how it works with that, but it didn't really work. The gambeson bunched up quite a bit under the vambrace and rebrace and movement was pretty stiff. If I would have worn a hauberk between the gambeson and plate it would have been even worse. So, my new plan is to buy this gambeson for WMA practice and my 1250-ish kit and make my own thinner aketon/arming coat for my 14th century kit plate kit. I can also use this gambeson stand-alone with a kettle helmet so I can reasonably participate in pretty much any event set between the 12th and 15th century.

My questions:

How snug should a gambeson fit? This one fits me pretty well (I think) but it's not entirely snug. It could be a little bit thinner/smaller around the waist. Not by much though, about 10 centimeters in waist circumference without impairing movement.

Would a gambeson of this thickness/stiffness be worn under a hauberk? I haven't tested it with a hauberk yet, but I do intend to test this in the store before I actually buy it.

How resistant to chafing damage is rough linen canvas? The gambeson is quite expensive and I would hate to wear it out fast when I start wearing a riveted mail hauberk over it.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

[Jean Thibodeau]

Can't give you a definite answer but a few things you might consider are range of motion and stiffness or rather avoid stiffness that make it hard to bend your arms.

You should be able to raise your arms over your head without the entire ganbison ( aketon ) wanting to rise with it.

It shouldn't be so thick that depending on the sizing of your maille it become too tight to move.

At the elbow the fabric may become flexible enough after a break in period ..... or not !

The forearm tailoring should taper to close fitting if you want to use plate arms and not have to be folded over to close the vambraces.

Oh, and if you bring your arms forward putting tension on the upper back of the gambison your movement shouldn't feel restricted: If you want to fight you have to be able to move.

I bought a cheap gambison that seemed about the right size for me ( XL but I should have gotten XXL ) but when I brought my arms forward and tensed my muscles the seams at the back of the shoulders ripped off like in an " Incredible Hulk Movie ".

Very heavy and thick might be better for a fabric armour meant to be stand alone armour rather than padding under maille I think: You want some good padding under the maille but not at the expense of being able to move or feeling like an overstuffed sausage.

[Christopher VaughnStrever]

I cannot provide historical answers to your questions. However if you are interested I can provide tips and a small tutorial so you can make your own in such a way that you will be able to move freely. Just send a pm.

[Felix R.]

The gambeson samples they show in the hand stitched section seem to be made by Kokosz from Poland. At least he is pictured in a few other pictures on that page. I had him make me a padded helmet liner and aventail. He does use raw wool to fill the tubes and it is too stiff. Even when using wool it should be fluffy still.
I had those guys make me an Aketon http://www.medieval-market.biz/goods.php?kate...at2=Arming Garments
You can give them a lot details and they incorporate everything. In my opinion the Aketon of the later 14th cent should be as tight as possible without restricting moement and breathing.
Mine is differential thickness in different parts of the garment and I just send it back for modifying the lower arms having them even more tight and less padding.
This is the old picture, but it is already tight in the body and upper arms

[Sander Marechal]

Thanks for all the comments so far.

[Felix R.]

Mine is quite good fitting at the torso and hip section. At first it was as wide as in the situation you described. I brought it back to the medieval market guys, they modified it and sent it back to me. Then it was the tight fit it is now in the picture. Maybe it could be a faint tighter, but it must not be. The tight fit around hips and shoullders is really good, so the garment doesn´t moove muh with the armour attached.
In my opinion, you won´t be able to order a garment that is 100% perfect in the first place. So you need a maker that will help you modify it after trying it on and after some time of using it. So you can see what needs to be modified. Better would be to have the maker take your measurments, in case they really know how to do it and even then they have to be able to make a proper garment out of it.
In conclusion, I can recommend the people of medieval market because of a ok fit in the first place and really good customer service with the modification.

[Dan Howard]

This is the problem with not having a decent typology. If we used standardised terms then things would be simpler. If gambeson was defined as standalone armour and haketon was defined as underarmour then we wouldn't need a whole sentence for clarification each time the subject is mentioned. Right now if I wanted to talk about an aketon I would have to waste time saying that I am refering to a lightly padded garment intended to be worn under mail.

[Sander Marechal]

@Felix: Thanks, so the one I saw may be a bit too wide then.

I think I have stumbled upon the manufacturer of the gambeson I tried: Matuls. The pictures match very well, except the one I tried came further down my legs. The model is the same though. As is the material and even the eyelets (five sets of two eyelets on each side, no ties supplied). Here's a link to the gambeson:

http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Lng=...ategoria=6

The price seems right too. In the local store it's 180 euro. The manufacturer website is 135 euro. Add shipping and a markup for the store and it sounds about right. I could order one through the website and have it tailored to my size.

Any opinions on Matuls? Are they nice gambesons? Does he tailor well? If it doesn't fit, can I send it back and have it made fit better?

[David Teague]

[Sander Marechal]

Thanks David. I've seen a couple of posts of you about Matuls on the Armour Archive as well

Since you apparently know his products, do you happen to know the difference between his type 2 and type 4 gambeson? I can't tell from the pictures. Apart from the color it looks pretty much like the same model to me. I know that his type 1 is the most appropriate for my period, but I'd really like to be able to get out of my gambeson without the help of a squire (or two)

[David Teague]

Hello Sander,

I've never quite figured out the difference myself.

We have always bought the #4 as our standard coat.

3 of us have the Pourpoint style coats instead/along with the #4 coat.

Cheers,

David

[Dan Howard]

[Connor Ruebusch]

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

[David Teague]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Sander Marechal]

[Dan Howard]

Regarding putting armour on by yourself: This is another difference between coats of plates and brigandines. The coat of plates fastened at the rear which meant that it couldn't be put on without assistance. Brigandines were fastened at the sides or front so you can put it on yourself. This could imply that brigandines were worn by a greater number of people (reaching much lower in the ranks) than the COP.

[Sander Marechal]

[Reinier van Noort]

Then why is the Maciejowski bible full of normal soldiers with gambesons that are not front-opening?