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Dustin Faulkner




Location: BOERNE, TX
Joined: 20 Jul 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Questions about a costume and Gothic sallets         Reply with quote

Hello:

My goal is to eventually have a basic medieval infantryman's costume. I own a Hanwei bastard sword which seems to be a very good "generic" replica of a medieval longsword, and a couple of polearms. I'd like to get a gothic sallet helmet to go with them along with a brigandine and appropriate pants & shoes.

Based on illustrations I've seen in books like Osprey's series about medieval battles (like Towton), Gothic style sallets were worn by many infantrymen too. If a sallet was worn by an infantryman, was it usually worn without a bevor? It seems like bevors were more often worn by knights in full armor and infantrymen just wore the sallet helmet by itself.

I've noticed Kult of Athena now carries a line of GDFB helmets. Two of which are gothic style sallets. One has a bevor, another doesn't. I like their use of 14 guage steel. Here are their links:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...+%26+Bevor

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...sor+Helmet


There is another Gothic sallet by Deepeeka too. Does anyone know what gauge steel is used for it? Does it come with a chin strap? Here is its link:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...able+Visor

Can anyone comment on these sallets please before I abuse my credit card? The profile of the Deepeeka sallet seems more accurate in that the visor is essentially horizontal when closed. How is its quality? A thinner steel appears to be used. The GDFB sallets use 14 gauge steel and come with chin straps. However, the visors strangely appear to be angled upward slightly when closed. Maybe this is due to the photos' angles. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but every sallets' visor I've seen is horizontal when closed.

I am actually wondering if anyone sells a replica of a Gothic sallet that is simply one piece. There's no bevor and no moveable visor - just a vision slit. I assume many infantrymen used this kind of sallet. Here is a link to an example of what I am talking about found on this website:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=188

When purchasing a helmet, should one get an arming cap too? Does that affect your choice of size?


I found a brigadine I want:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...dine+Armor

The gentleman modeling it has chainmail underneath the brigadine. Was this always the case? I assume it was - it makes sense.

What would be authentic pants and shoes (or boots)?

Thanks guys. Please pardon my ignorance of medieval clothing. My focus has been on weapons and their use. I don't care to own a full suit of armor (I know ... I'm probably the only one) due mostly to price. Thus, my interest in an infantryman's costume with a dagger, and perhaps with armored gauntlets too.

Thank you!

Sincerely,
Dustin Faulkner

DUSTIN FAULKNER
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin Faulkner wrote:
I am actually wondering if anyone sells a replica of a Gothic sallet that is simply one piece. There's no bevor and no moveable visor - just a vision slit.

I believe Gerald Fa. has one from Deepeeka as seen in this thread.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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S. Jansone




Location: Latvia
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 12:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It would be very good if you can define more precisely which century are you going to reenact. You can send me PM, if wanted, so I can try to help with clothing and shoes...
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If he's wearing a Gothic Sallet and knows to be researching battles such as Towton, he's probably reenacting the mid to late 15th century.

Dustin, all of those reproduction pieces are probably going to be of similar quality. They are all made in India or China and are "one size fits all" helmets, most suitable for people who have a 24" head circumference or thereabouts. The quality of the riveting, polishing and general construction is going to be typical for costuming, but not for high end reenactment. The prices reflect this. If your budget does not allow you to purchase anything more high end or custom, then I'd go with the Deepeeka helmet when you can find it at a vendor. If you could spend a little more money, I'd suggest getting a custom sized helm from a Ukranian vendor such as Armour and Castings, who do fine work. Reviews of some of their products are shown on the myArmoury review pages, and I've personally ordered a bascinet from them with wonderful service.

http://www.armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a...ductId=257

http://www.armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a...ductId=256

You will find a number of other options on their page, and every helmet is custom made to fit you and your specifications. The prices are hardly double, if even, that of the mass produced Indian helmets. If you can afford even more luxurious reproductions, there are a number of high end armourers that would work with products in the $500-1,000 range but I won't bother posting about that until you say whether it's something you're interested in it!

I would also not wear a bevor as an infantryman. Infantry had to have very good ventilation because they relied constantly on their own bodies for work during battle, and a bevor would be an encumbrance and an endangerment to their ventilation.

That Windlass brigandine you posted is also poorly constructed and I would suggest not getting it. If you drop by the Armour Archive and ask about some of this stuff, you could probably construct your own, much more accurate and much better fitting brigandine for half that cost in materials. The Windlass version is also a one size fits all piece and is pretty funky, with a suede cover and weirdly placed plates, more akin to fantasy "coats of rings" than an actual brigandine.

I'll come back by and see if you would like any more information... I'd like to emphasize the importance of ordering custom items when reenacting. I started doing this stuff when I was 15, and it was all about getting the least expensive items out of India. I've owned a dozen of Deepeeka's swords and helmets and such, and numerous items by Windlass. The more interested I got in reenactment, the more I realized how ill-suited these items were to really reflecting historical quality in arms and armor and I simply wanted to get rid of them and start all over! If you have the means, save yourself the trouble starting at the bottom of the ladder, and shoot for the mid-ground. You'll appreciate the quality and fit of items you order or make yourself much more than these mass produced items, and will likely keep them much longer as a result.

Cheers!

-Gregory

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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking as one who has seen many real Schallern, celatas, salades, etc, and handled quite a few, none of those above look right seen head-on. There are a number of different possible looks, but these seem to have missed all of them.
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Dustin Faulkner




Location: BOERNE, TX
Joined: 20 Jul 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Thanks guys!         Reply with quote

Thank you for all the responses so far. Yes ... I am interested in making my own brigadine. I welcome links to any information about doing this. Is the armor archive that was mentioned part of this website?

I suppose I'll save for a custom late gothic sallet. I really like the look of this type of helmet. It's sort of sinister.

DUSTIN FAULKNER
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks guys!         Reply with quote

Dustin Faulkner wrote:
Is the armor archive that was mentioned part of this website?


No, it's a different website: http://www.armourarchive.org
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Dustin,

I'm currently working on a kit similar to yours in some ways ... I'd second the advice of those above and take the time to do a lot of research, and save up for better gear. If you do a search for 'brigandine' here, you'll find some good beginning points, including Bill Grandy's comments on why that Windlass brig is not really accurate - or well made, and a post or two by forumites who have made their own brigs.

It would be a lot of work, but here's one person's take on making your own: www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brig_craig1.html There's also a current thread here on myArmoury about brigs with shoulders, which contains some images from one supplier, which might help in your thinking and planning.

As for the question about whether mail would have been worn under a brigandine, the small amount of research I've done so far suggests this varied a lot on time and place: some folks did, some used voiders and skirts, and some used no mail.

For sallets, again, there's a lot of information on this forum. Brian Hook has a beautiful one for sale here right now, but at more than $1000 it might be outside your price range. Here's a current thread from The Armour Archive about sources for sallets: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewto...ght=sallet Be warned, though, that some of the leads offered by some well-meaning SCA folks are to pieces that don't appear well made and the aesthetics are worse than the cheap Indian stuff. There are some great pics of historical sallets there, though, that might help.

Beyond that, Gary Embleton and John Howe's The medieval soldier: 15th century campaign life recreated in colour might have some useful examples for you - there are a few brigs, and lots of sallets worn by infantry (with no bevors): http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=1859150365

Oh, and do a search for posts here by Ben van Koert and Aaron Schnatterly - two of the most inspiring brigandine and sallet kits you'll find ... they also show their kit at different times / versions, where they have sourced things from, and so on.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For historically correct sallets here is a very good maker but they are on the high side of the price spectrum but if you have $750 to $2600 for one raised from one piece to spend here is a good place to look:

http://www.flarcheveque.com/#

Clic on English/Products/Helmets

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin, Here's a recent thread about US and Canadian sources of sallets: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=sallet

As Gregory flagged above, these might be outside your current price range, but they'll be a good place for inspiration, and a starting point for being able to judge the lines/aesthetics, design aspects, and construction quality that James spoke about.

And if you want to see one of these armourers in action, check out this video of Eric Dube raising a sallet from one piece: http://www.armuredube.com/armuredube.com/Sallet_video.html Just watching this will give some idea of the work involved in making a sallet with a lot of attention to detail, rather than just churning it out in a factory ... I learnt a lot from it, and the soundtrack and gentle humour are also a joy!
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Dustin Faulkner




Location: BOERNE, TX
Joined: 20 Jul 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Sallet choice         Reply with quote

Dear Gentlemen:

I thank everyone for educating me about the "high-end" armourers out there. Their work is very nice. I confess I wish I knew how to make my own sallet since it can be made from one piece. Mr. Dube's (?) video was very interesting. I have access to a blacksmith shop, but haven't a clue how to actually make a sallet eventhough I saw that video.

For my purposes, which is to have a costume, I have decided to get the Deepeeka basic sallet without a visor. I like the look of single piece sallets. Also, Deepeeka's shape appears more authentic than GDFB's. A Mr. Whittinger at Kult of Athena is helping me in this endeavor.

Should I have the good fortune to move to a city with an ARMA chapter someday, I will certainly consider higher quality gear. As of now, I am trying to simply educate myself about real pollaxe and sword usage with DVDs and books like Mr. Tobler's. The Agilitas.tv longsword DVD was very enlightening - especially the grappling moves.

Again, thank you for your help gentlemen.

Sincerely,
Dustin Faulkner

DUSTIN FAULKNER
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good luck with the costume, Dustin. We're happy to assist you in any way you'd like, and feel free to come around with more questions about the kit! If you have the opportunity, come back and post some pictures of yourself in all the stuff after you've got it finished up!

-Gregory

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