[William Carew]

Hi everyone

I know the topic of whether or not longswords were carried or worn during the 16th century, particularly without armour, has been raised before on threads such as this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15819

I thought I'd share some pictures of historical artwork, predominately from the 16th century, that I took in Vienna, Munich, Dresden and Berlin among other places.

It may not have been common, but longswords (and gross messers too) certainly were depicted 'at the hip' in the late 15th and first half of the 16th century. An interesting aspect is how narrow and delicate the belts and straps look compared to the often overly thick and over-engineered types some modern craftsman make.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Grandy]

Hey Bill,
Those are some great pics! Thanks for sharing!

I'm often puzzled at why people insist that the longsword was only used for sport by the 16th century, considering just how often you see it depicted in 16th century art, and given how many surviving examples of antiques there are from the 16th century.

[Artis Aboltins]

Now that last picture is intriguing! I wonder why would someone want to carry both longsword and gross messer at same time?

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Luka Borscak]

Cool pictures. Does anyone have a picture of an antique longsword from 15th or 16th century as broad and with as spatulate tip like from the first picture? Without it being rehilted old XIIIa. This one looks like it has no fuller, maybe flattened diamond?

[Daniel Staberg]

One or two of the images does not show swords which IMHO looks like longswords. The image of the landsknecht in brown and yellow clothing shows a standard katzbalger of the longer type which frequently appears in the drawings of Paul Dolnstein for example. The image below that one is a bit odd as the blade is rather short but with a long grip.

I don't think there is any doubt that the longsword saw extensive use in the first 30 odd years of the 16th Century, Swiss troops are commonly shown wear longswords as sidearms and longswords appear in use by mounted troops as well. But sometime in the 1530's, perhaps early 1540's the use of the longsword in war seems to decline fairly rapidly judging by the sources.

[Greg Coffman]

Bill,
Those are great images. Where did you find them?

Greg Coffman

[Martin Fischer]

[Bill Grandy]

[Artis Aboltins]

[M. Eversberg II]

Given the amount of room needed to use a longsword, I can't imagine them being very common infantry weapons; you'd be limited to attacks from above and thrusts, and there are bound to be cheaper weapons that do that.

M.

[Greg Coffman]

[William Carew]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Greg Coffman]

[Cornelis Tromp]

[Dan Rosen]

Based on what evidence we have, I think everyone can agree that people did use longswords throughout the sixteenth century. In the thread you linked to, the issues raised there regarded time and place.

The artworks in this thread, as you noted, are from the early part of the sixteenth century and look to be predominantly German. Fashion and choices made vary per region, country, decade, etc., so we must not draw sweeping conclusions. The gentleman in the last thread indicated through his designs and desires that he was aiming for a late sixteenth century outfit, and the sort of images in this thread don't really apply.

Also consider the intent of the artworks you posted here. Are they depictions of real events? Or are they scenes from distant places or the Holy Land? Are they allegorical? Every little piece of any artwork is a construction; the artist makes visual choices that determine and/or influence what the viewer sees. In the case of many Medieval/Renaissance artworks (and well on into the 20th century), artists that had never left their homeland, let alone seen a foreign traveler, were on occasion tasked with depicting the exotic, and so many of these artworks are for a good part imagined or skewed. Cross-reference everything to create the clearest picture of the past.

I'm curious now as to the development of pike tactics. I'm familiar with those from the latter half of the sixteenth century on into the early seventeenth. We have many images of Swiss Reislaufer with longswords and pike, but as you get farther along, people start advocating the use of short swords or daggers in a pike formation. The Katzbalger might usually be rather short, and Sir John Smythe, in one of his books suggested daggers with small hilts for use in a pike block. In the seventeenth century, men might have short blades or hangers. I've read a few accounts about problems at musters where men have excessively long rapiers that just won't do. So what changed?

-Dan[/u]

[Luka Borscak]

[Greg Coffman]

[William Carew]

Thanks Greg! Those are really interesting images. Where are these from (so I know where to go next time I'm in Europe!)?

Cheers

Bill