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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Could someone please explain these weird armours?         Reply with quote

On this guy's blog he posts some photos of armour he photographed in France. Some of the suits look quite...odd to me. His first language is obviously Russian so I think sometimes he has written inaccurate descriptions of the stuff on the blog. For instance, there is this suit:



The description on the page reads: "I am not sure what is it, looks like maximilian, 15th century. Definitely it was made for infantry, pay attention on faulds."

OK. It is obviously not Maximilian. What time period is it from? To be honest, I have NEVER seen pauldrons like that, with the lower lames arranged in a radial pattern like spokes coming from a hub, except in portraits of French noblemen from the very late 1600s and early 1700s. This is a style that seems to have come around only in the very last days of plate armour. But that harness looks like it's for a pikeman. Is it a very late example of a pikeman officer's armour?

Here's another odd one: it says it's for Pierre Bruner, someone I can find no record of, and is said to be dated 1590-1600. This one has a crazy amount of lower lames in the pauldrons and again they are arranged in that spoke-like pattern that I have not seen in anything as early as 1600. Furthermore the helmet on this one is really weird - I have never seen anything like it. Frankly it is one of the silliest looking helmets I've ever seen.



Much larger image here. Look at that strange face mask with the goofy smile. What kind of helmet is this? Some variant of a closed burgonet? Is that faceplate an articulated buffe that folds down? It looks like it might be.

Now here's something else. There are a few armours shown with helmets that look kind of like closed burgonets, but they have big, open vision slits that come down in the center almost like a barbute. I'll show you what I mean:





What's with these weird helmets. Are they closed burgonets? I have never seen any such helmet anywhere before.

Anyone know about this stuff?[/img]

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Alex Hoogstraten




Location: The netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far i can tell it isn't from the late 15th century. But there some similarities.

Anyway. These are for somewhere around 1600 I think.In the dutch royal army museum they have allot of simular armour for the time of Maurits of orange. I belief this was used in conflicts like the 80 years war in the low countries and de German 30 years war.




Maurits of orange his own harness.



To upper harness could be for heavy pikemen. I also have seen a similar helmet before.



Dutch Pikeman from around 1600

As for the helmets. That they are all different isn't strange. Many wealthier nobleman would have them custom made. I think that could explain the weirdness. They could also be for jousts in which you want to be seen.

www.cranenburgh.nl
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Norbert Keller




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there!

My opinion is that the first one is a hussar armour, its mainly from Poland, and around 17th century.



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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen that Dutch harness; it's actually a replica. I can't remember who built it but it is a very, very good recreation of the suit Maurice actually owned. It's a fairly standard cuirassier's harness, except that it is very closely fitted and well made, and has greaves (not many 17th century suits with greaves are extant - riding boots were usually worn instead.)

I don't think those helmets were used for jousts, since the armours don't have lance rests and they would have left the face and eyes too exposed to splinters.

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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that those armours are austrian, hungarian or polish, late 16'th or early 17'th century. They look similar with something I saw in Graz armoury.
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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
OK. It is obviously not Maximilian. What time period is it from? To be honest, I have NEVER seen pauldrons like that, with the lower lames arranged in a radial pattern like spokes coming from a hub, except in portraits of French noblemen from the very late 1600s and early 1700s. This is a style that seems to have come around only in the very last days of plate armour. But that harness looks like it's for a pikeman. Is it a very late example of a pikeman officer's armour?


16th century armour, the cuirass itself is probably of german make. There's thousands of these at the armoury in Graz. The Zischägge and the gauntlets would be another sign hinting towards a 16th century piece. The last three are from the same century too.
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you mean 17th century (1600s) because I'm under the impression the zischagge (of which I consider the lobster-tail pot helmet to be a variation) was most popular during that time.
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephane Thion's French armies of the Thirty Years War has two photos of the first armour, it's a Swiss pikemans armour from the 1620-1630 period according to the photo caption. IMHO I have some doubts about the helmet, I suspect that the Zischägge is a later addition and not a part of the orginial harness. Perhaps the armour was intended for an officer of the Swiss Guards?

The odd helmets with the "T" shaped openings for the face are probably Savoyard style closed helmest which have lost the outer visor. When complete the helmet would look like this http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstab...ssierb.jpg
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Alex Hoogstraten




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam D. Kent-Isaac wrote:
I've seen that Dutch harness; it's actually a replica. I can't remember who built it but it is a very, very good recreation of the suit Maurice actually owned. It's a fairly standard cuirassier's harness, except that it is very closely fitted and well made, and has greaves (not many 17th century suits with greaves are extant - riding boots were usually worn instead.)
.


Are you sure? I've never seen greaves on the harnass of Maurits. Nor does my minature show greaves on it.

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My mistake, you are absolutely right. The manikin is wearing high riding boots; they are dark colored and I thought that they were greaves, but they aren't. It is very uncommon to see a 17th century heavy cavalry harness with greaves and sabatons; one I can think of is the suit which belonged to Charles I, now at the Tower of London. Gilded and etched, and of Dutch manufacture, it is a typical Dutch cuirassier's armour with a close helmet.

Very interesting theory about the helmets with the T-shaped vision openings; I had thought that maybe they were Savoyard-style burgonets with the original visors missing. I have to say I have never seen a Savoyard helmet paired with an anime cuirass. That photo of the cuirassier re-enactor is really amazing - who is that? Who made his armour and helmet? I think that style of helmet is one of the most powerfully intimidating ever designed.

About the silly face visor, that armour did indeed belong to a Swiss man named Peter or Pierre Bruner; he was in the service of the French kings from Henri II to Henri IV. I think he died in 1608. That armour with the long tassets was probably made for him towards the end of his life, as it is in the style of the early 1600s. The buffe for the burgonet has an unholy lot of breathing holes in it, more than I have ever seen. It makes a great deal of sense that something like that would be worn by an older man. I still think the visor looks very silly.

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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All of them are definitely post 1550.
You can find some proto-zischagges as early as 1560, and as far as I can tell from that photo, surface and decorations seem to suggest that the helmet is really part of that harness. But honestly, my guess would be rather around 1590-1600, cuirass is almost surely German-made. It was probably for someone quite rich - it's clearly infantry, but has a bit too much parts (like pauldrons) for the standard infantryman from that time.
...
Mr. Sillyface is dated well... btw, just HOW silly does it feel to you? Silly enough to stop for a moment in a fight? There are just too many similar silly faced visors out there to be a single man's idiocy. (it should be noted though that the early 16th century had MUCH more silly faces in comparison from what I've seen)
...
There's at least one savoyard with such face made so intentionally, so they could be also intentional designs OR missing plates. A close study of those helmets would clear this issue, you'd only have to search for rivet holes.


Polish-made hussar armour has a distinct fashion, to which only Norbert's picture is close, and even that has a tappelbrust instead of the "typical" Polish-style anime.
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fascinating stuff, thanks.

Some of the Savoyard masks with human face designs I honestly cannot tell whether they're supposed to be intimidating or humorous. Some of them have evil-looking smiles; some of them have totally apathetic looking expressions; but Pierre Bruner's helmet (which is the first falling-buffe visor I have ever seen with a face design on it, by the way) just looks comedic. The exaggerated swoosh of the smiling mouth is so open and friendly-looking, it seems like the armour is about to reach out and give you a big hug.

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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam D. Kent-Isaac wrote:
I've seen that Dutch harness; it's actually a replica. I can't remember who built it but it is a very, very good recreation of the suit Maurice actually owned.


I believe it was built by Gotscha Lagidse, www.gotscha.nl

Johan Schubert Moen
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