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Sander Marechal
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 Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: Help a newbie pick a sword: Hanwei "Tinker" longsw |
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Hi all, can you help a newbie choose a decent sword? I've been lurking here for some time reading the forum, reading the features, reviews, etcetera.
A while ago I enrolled in a WMA class in The Netherlands and I have been having a lot of fun doing that with hard plastic wasters. Now I'm thinking about buying my first steel blunt sword. Since our class focuses on Liechtenauer I have been looking at longswords, hand-and-a-half swords, etcetera.
I have read a lot of reviews on this and other sites and I understand there's a world of difference between the various manufacturers and models. Not just in the quality and how well they hold up to some serious fencing and abuse, but also in how well (or even historically correct) the handling is.
Currently I'm thinking about a Hanwei "Tinker" longsword. From what I gather from reviews the average Hanwei sword isn't that great, but the "Tinker" series is. It's also not too expensive. I saw them at KoA at around 340 US$ including S&H, which translates to about 230 euro. That would be around the top of my budget. I also like that Hanwei sells replacement blades for it should the need arise.
Aside from WMA drills (solo and against someone else) I also want to be able to use the sword for sparring, re-enactment and possibly living history. Our WMA class does a lot of things outside WMA such as re-enactment, visiting fairs and other things. From more serious LH things to the completely ridiculous (e.g. we're going to a fair a la Monty Python and the Holy Grail, complete with killer bunny, silver painted knitted sweaters for maille and of course coconut shells).
I need a decent sword for all these kinds of activities. One that will last me quite some time. That way I can spend the rest of my (yet to save up) money on other kinds of weapons and armour in the future instead of buying replacement swords :-)
So, what are your opinions on the "Tinker" longsword? Or do you have other recommendations for me?
Thanks in advance!
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Roger Hooper
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Have to second Roger on this. The Tinker's are really nice, but for sustained use striking other metal longswords I use my Albion Lichtenaur more than my Tinker longsword. I own both and I like my Tinker for subtle light sparing, but for hard sparing I use my Albion...it's more robust in its blade and sturdier than the tinker because it's peened instead of screwed together.
So, if you are going to use your longsword for light practice in the salle practicing drills rather than fighting than I would recommend the Tinker. If you're going to suit up in armor and start fighting...then definitely the Albion. The price difference isn't that much between the two and aside from the scabbard that comes with the Tinker, still pretty close in value.
Hope this helps,
Bryce
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
I would personally would not get one of the Hanwei blunts, someone I know purchased one. It was quite nice seeming at first but after a four day event it looked like a hacksaw, and even after hours of filing was pretty unsafe to use. I believe a few of the guilds are actually banning them!
My advice would be to save and buy something nice. Here are a few of my suggestions:
Arms & Armor www.arms-n-armor.com has some lovely blunts. My favorite part about the A&A ones is that they look like historical training blunts, rather than blunted sharps or modern trainers. Unfortunately they don't have a european brach so postage is going to be a bit more.
Albion makes several nice blunts, but they do not look like historical training blunts. I have one of the Liechtenauers and love training with it. The sword is rock solid. http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by...estro.aspx
Pavel Moc's blunts are also quite nice, but can be a hit and miss affair. They also tend to look more like blunted sharps rather than historical blunts. The model I used to train with was the Embelton, and it was an absolutely lovely sword. http://www.swords.cz/enindex.html
Cheers,
Hadrian
Historia magistra vitae est
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hadrian Coffin wrote: | Hello
I would personally would not get one of the Hanwei blunts, someone I know purchased one. It was quite nice seeming at first but after a four day event it looked like a hacksaw, and even after hours of filing was pretty unsafe to use. I believe a few of the guilds are actually banning them!
My advice would be to save and buy something nice. Here are a few of my suggestions:
Arms & Armor www.arms-n-armor.com has some lovely blunts. My favorite part about the A&A ones is that they look like historical training blunts, rather than blunted sharps or modern trainers. Unfortunately they don't have a european brach so postage is going to be a bit more.
Albion makes several nice blunts, but they do not look like historical training blunts. I have one of the Liechtenauers and love training with it. The sword is rock solid. http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by...estro.aspx
Pavel Moc's blunts are also quite nice, but can be a hit and miss affair. They also tend to look more like blunted sharps rather than historical blunts. The model I used to train with was the Embelton, and it was an absolutely lovely sword. http://www.swords.cz/enindex.html
Cheers,
Hadrian |
Goes back to what I said earlier in that the Tinker's are more "drilling" swords than "sparing" swords. I think the Tinker's do fine for individual practice or light drilling. If you do full force and speed bashing then they aren't the best for that.
Another option in Europe is Lutel...their swords are built like tanks and handle quite well. I used to have one before I got my Tinker and Albion...and probably will get another one before too long. They are a bit more pricey than the Albion sword though, but hold up very well. I know people who have owned and used them hard for years with no problem.
I also hear the newer Armor Class swords are getting good also, though I haven't seen one recently.
Regards,
Bryce
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, that's really helpful advice.
| Quote: | | Albion has a European outlet |
I know, but have you seen the price difference? The Liechtenauer sells for US$ 490 from the US website which translates to EUR 330. Albion Europe sells it for EUR 410.
I liked that AEMEA review. No idea why that didn't show up on my Google searches earlier. Looking at those pictures after use it doesn't seem too bad. The top one looks to be in reasonable shape except for the slight bend in the guard. The bottom one looks a bit more like a hacksaw but not much worse that some of the steel swords I have handled at my WMA group (of course, the steel swords that people have allowed me to use during training so far were their older/backup swords). I presume that the swords would look better with normal use and care instead of this test 3.5 hours of very heavy use with no care in between.
For comparison, other people in my WMA group use swords from various manufacturers. Some are (I suspect) cheap Windlass and Hanwei swords. Some have more money and wield Del Tins, Pavel Mocs and Lutels.
| Quote: | | I own both and I like my Tinker for subtle light sparing, but for hard sparing I use my Albion |
Can you define hard sparring? Full force (or close to) in armour?
| Quote: | | So, if you are going to use your longsword for light practice in the salle practicing drills rather than fighting than I would recommend the Tinker. |
That is what I am going to start out with. I haven't been practicing WMA for that long. Our trainer advices using steel during solo drills from the beginning. For the rest it's still plastic wasters. But of course I soon hope to use steel for paired drills and later on for light free sparring. I don't think we do much full force armoured sparring. Most people don't have enough armour for it (yet). The majority trains in a gambeson and gloves. A few use helmets for the entire training (the school provides fencing masks for free sparring or particularly fast paced paired drills). Some don't have any armour yet. Currently my armour consists of a pair of gardening gloves to prevent blisters from the hilt :-)
| Quote: | | The price difference isn't that much between the two |
The Liechtenauer from Albion Europe is more than twice the price of the Tinker Longsword from KoA (ex. S&H). That price difference buys me a gambeson and a pair of decent sparring gloves. I'm sure the Albion is worth it. Just not sure if it's the best investment for me :-)
| Quote: | | I would personally would not get one of the Hanwei blunts, someone I know purchased one. It was quite nice seeming at first but after a four day event it looked like a hacksaw, and even after hours of filing was pretty unsafe to use. |
Were those standard Hanwei swords or the "Tinker" line? From what I read so far the "Tinker" line is a lot better.
| Quote: | | My favorite part about the A&A ones is that they look like historical training blunts, rather than blunted sharps or modern trainers. |
Actually, I want something that resembles a sharp rather than a historic blunt. That way I can use it for e.g. re-enactment or living history as well. I've also read various reviews that the historic blunts are quite whippy. Do you happen to have any experience with that?
| Quote: | | Pavel Moc's blunts are also quite nice, but can be a hit and miss affair. |
Can you explain a bit better about what could be "miss" about them? At least at around 280 euro they're more in line with my budget than the Albion swords :-)
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Adam S.
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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If you wanna go cheap and steel, I'd say go for the Hanwei Practical Hand and a Half.
Every single review I've read of it is between sterling and pretty good. If you've decided to go with KoA to get your blade, they price match and I've found it for as little as $85USD.
The Tinker blades are pretty cool, but there's a discussion over at AHF.
At least three nasty breaks, and the group that Hadrian mentioned posted too.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu 10 Dec, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again,
| Quote: | Quote:
I would personally would not get one of the Hanwei blunts, someone I know purchased one. It was quite nice seeming at first but after a four day event it looked like a hacksaw, and even after hours of filing was pretty unsafe to use.
Were those standard Hanwei swords or the "Tinker" line? From what I read so far the "Tinker" line is a lot better. |
I was talking about the "Tinker" line. I have seen a few of the old Hanwei blunts as well, the old ones are worse in terms of handling and balance, but the durability seems pretty equal.
| Quote: | Quote:
My favorite part about the A&A ones is that they look like historical training blunts, rather than blunted sharps or modern trainers.
Actually, I want something that resembles a sharp rather than a historic blunt. That way I can use it for e.g. re-enactment or living history as well. I've also read various reviews that the historic blunts are quite whippy. Do you happen to have any experience with that? |
To each there own I guess. Properly done historical blunts do not seem "whippy". Personally I see no problem with a "whippy" blade though; historically many blades were very flexible. Today some of the antiques would (if they were new) be called "whippy". In terms of flexibility the A&A historically styled blunt is fairly equal to the Albion one. My problem with blunts looking like sharps is that they never really do, instead they end up just looking very modern to me. If that's what you are going for then the Pavel Mocs are probably as close as your going to get to looking like a sharp.
| Quote: | Quote:
Pavel Moc's blunts are also quite nice, but can be a hit and miss affair.
Can you explain a bit better about what could be "miss" about them? At least at around 280 euro they're more in line with my budget than the Albion swords :-)
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I can't actually say what the "miss" ones are like as I have never seen one. Every Pavel Moc I have used has been brilliant, however I have heard that it is not always the case. Supposedly some poorly made blades come out of the Pavel Moc shop if you are buying straight from them. The only ones I have used were purchased by someone who deals in Pavel Mocs. This dealer is known to send shoddy ones back, so supposedly Pavel Moc tries a bit harder to find good ones before sending them to him. If I were you I'd would simply buy one, if it is one of the shoddy ones send it back and have them mail you a new one. The Pavel Mocs I have seen have been very nice swords, as nice or nicer than the Albions I own.
Lutel swords are also very nice, I have used them on occasion as well. The Lutel swords are nice, but not my favorite. They are very robust, but bloody heavy because of it.
Cheers,
Hadrian 
Historia magistra vitae est
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Fri 11 Dec, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all :-)
| Quote: | The Tinker blades are pretty cool, but there's a discussion over at AHF.
At least three nasty breaks, and the group that Hadrian mentioned posted too. |
Breaks are pretty bad. And the photos they show do make it look more like a hacksaw than the other review. I know that some of our WMA members use sturdier Lutel and Pavel Moc swords so I presume edge notching would be a problem for me too.
That AHF link also pointed me to an armourer I haven't heard of before: Heron Armoury. They sell 34"-36" blunt swords around the US$ 400 price range, about as expensive as Pavel Moc swords. Any opinions on Heron swords?
| Quote: | | I can't actually say what the "miss" ones are like as I have never seen one. ... If I were you I'd would simply buy one, if it is one of the shoddy ones send it back and have them mail you a new one. |
How could I tell if it's a shoddy one? I don't yet have the skill to distinguish a good sword from a lemon, which is why I'm seeking your help to begin with :-) I suppose that since you recommend this, Pavel Moc has no qualms about replacing a bad sword?
| Quote: | | The Lutel swords are nice, but not my favorite. They are very robust, but bloody heavy because of it. |
Reading the specs on their website the weight difference doesn't seem too great. The Albion Liechtenauer is 1.6 kilo (3.5 lb). A Lutel hand-and-a-half weighs 1.75 kilo (3.85 lb). Does that 0.35 lb extra weight make a lot of difference in handling? Or are the Lutel swords typically heavier than advertised on his website? (Or am I comparing apples and oranges now?)
Thanks again everyone. Your advice has been really helpful so far.
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William Goodwin
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| Posted: Fri 11 Dec, 2009 3:13 am Post subject: |
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I agree on the Del-Tin, Armour Class, Pavel Moc, A & A, Albion suggestions...given you have the funds. Even to old standard practical h&h Hanwei....the Tinker line sharps are great, but the blunts I haven't liked for a training tool.
Also would like to add another name to the list...Valiant Armory are doing some fine work with their line-up.
The AT-302b longsword blunt or the AT 301b I-Beam trainer. I have one of the I-Beam trainers and am very impressed with it
as far as a training blunt goes. Have been using it extensively for practice and instructing longsword and it has held up very well. A plus are the prices......
Roanoke Sword Guilde
roanokeswordguilde@live.com
"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Fri 11 Dec, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sander Marechal wrote: | Thanks, that's really helpful advice.
| Quote: | | Albion has a European outlet |
I know, but have you seen the price difference? The Liechtenauer sells for US$ 490 from the US website which translates to EUR 330. Albion Europe sells it for EUR 410.
I liked that AEMEA review. No idea why that didn't show up on my Google searches earlier. Looking at those pictures after use it doesn't seem too bad. The top one looks to be in reasonable shape except for the slight bend in the guard. The bottom one looks a bit more like a hacksaw but not much worse that some of the steel swords I have handled at my WMA group (of course, the steel swords that people have allowed me to use during training so far were their older/backup swords). I presume that the swords would look better with normal use and care instead of this test 3.5 hours of very heavy use with no care in between.
For comparison, other people in my WMA group use swords from various manufacturers. Some are (I suspect) cheap Windlass and Hanwei swords. Some have more money and wield Del Tins, Pavel Mocs and Lutels.
| Quote: | | I own both and I like my Tinker for subtle light sparing, but for hard sparing I use my Albion |
Can you define hard sparring? Full force (or close to) in armour?
| Quote: | | So, if you are going to use your longsword for light practice in the salle practicing drills rather than fighting than I would recommend the Tinker. |
That is what I am going to start out with. I haven't been practicing WMA for that long. Our trainer advices using steel during solo drills from the beginning. For the rest it's still plastic wasters. But of course I soon hope to use steel for paired drills and later on for light free sparring. I don't think we do much full force armoured sparring. Most people don't have enough armour for it (yet). The majority trains in a gambeson and gloves. A few use helmets for the entire training (the school provides fencing masks for free sparring or particularly fast paced paired drills). Some don't have any armour yet. Currently my armour consists of a pair of gardening gloves to prevent blisters from the hilt :-)
| Quote: | | The price difference isn't that much between the two |
The Liechtenauer from Albion Europe is more than twice the price of the Tinker Longsword from KoA (ex. S&H). That price difference buys me a gambeson and a pair of decent sparring gloves. I'm sure the Albion is worth it. Just not sure if it's the best investment for me :-)
| Quote: | | I would personally would not get one of the Hanwei blunts, someone I know purchased one. It was quite nice seeming at first but after a four day event it looked like a hacksaw, and even after hours of filing was pretty unsafe to use. |
Were those standard Hanwei swords or the "Tinker" line? From what I read so far the "Tinker" line is a lot better.
| Quote: | | My favorite part about the A&A ones is that they look like historical training blunts, rather than blunted sharps or modern trainers. |
Actually, I want something that resembles a sharp rather than a historic blunt. That way I can use it for e.g. re-enactment or living history as well. I've also read various reviews that the historic blunts are quite whippy. Do you happen to have any experience with that?
| Quote: | | Pavel Moc's blunts are also quite nice, but can be a hit and miss affair. |
Can you explain a bit better about what could be "miss" about them? At least at around 280 euro they're more in line with my budget than the Albion swords :-) |
To me "hard sparring" is when you are fighting in heavy protective gear and fighting with swords. "Light Sparring" to me is drills and slow plays to train.
In the end, you have to go with the best sword you can afford, not what you would "wish" to have. So if you can only afford the Tinker, then you should go for it. At least if you break the blade you can remove and replace it.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Fri 11 Dec, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How could I tell if it's a shoddy one? I don't yet have the skill to distinguish a good sword from a lemon, which is why I'm seeking your help to begin with :-) I suppose that since you recommend this, Pavel Moc has no qualms about replacing a bad sword? |
With the Pavel Mocs I don't know what is wrong with the lemons as I haven't seen a bad one yet, I have only heard rumors. Most makers don't have a problem with replacing a bad sword. If you buy one you could probably bring it by your salle, if there is something wrong with it someone will probably notice it. Chances are it will be a good one. Even a lemon Pavel Moc though would probably be better than the Cas/Hanwei "Tinker" blunts.
Cheers,
Hadrian
Historia magistra vitae est
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sat 12 Dec, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all.
| Quote: | | Also would like to add another name to the list...Valiant Armory are doing some fine work with their line-up. |
Well, I like their prices :-) From the photos the I-beam looks a bit... ugly... but the blunted long swords looks good. I also read some good reviews of it on SBG. How does it stack up against the other swords mentioned above? Is it a susceptible to nicks and breaks as the tinker?
| Quote: | | In the end, you have to go with the best sword you can afford, not what you would "wish" to have. So if you can only afford the Tinker, then you should go for it. |
It's not so much what I can afford. It's more of a balancing act. I could buy a more expensive sword but it would mean I'd have to save up a little longer and postpone buying a gambeson and gauntlets (the Albions are still way over budget though). I can do without a gambeson for the time being since for paired drills I still use plastic wasters (I'm a beginner) but I'd really appreciate being to afford gauntlets or thick padded leather gloves. I'm a self-employed computer programmer. Getting a broken finger would mean a couple of weeks without income until my insurance kicks in.
Yesterday at the training I had a chat with my trainer as well about swords (he owns several Pavel Moc swords). He recommended that I have a look at Kovex. I found a few threads about them here but nothing conclusive. Some love them, some don't care for them. I had a look at their website and I found some pictures. They look sturdy but also rough and unfinished (or antiquated). The hand-and-a-half swords cost about 275 US$, comparable to a Hanwei Tinker or VA Atrim blunt. Any idea how it compares to these?
PS: Tomorrow there's a mid-winter fair near my home town and there will be many manufacturers there, including Kovex. I'm going there so I can get a feel for all the different swords out there. Comparing pictures, stats and reviews on the internet is very different from just picking up a sword and feeling how it handles :-)
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Sat 12 Dec, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Hadrian Coffin wrote: | | Quote: | | How could I tell if it's a shoddy one? I don't yet have the skill to distinguish a good sword from a lemon, which is why I'm seeking your help to begin with :-) I suppose that since you recommend this, Pavel Moc has no qualms about replacing a bad sword? |
With the Pavel Mocs I don't know what is wrong with the lemons as I haven't seen a bad one yet, I have only heard rumors. Most makers don't have a problem with replacing a bad sword. If you buy one you could probably bring it by your salle, if there is something wrong with it someone will probably notice it. Chances are it will be a good one. Even a lemon Pavel Moc though would probably be better than the Cas/Hanwei "Tinker" blunts.
Cheers,
Hadrian |
I have a Pavel Moc Durrer and I absolutely love it. There are lots of Moc's swords in our school (School of European Swordsmanship, Helsinki). Excellent swords.
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Aleksei Sosnovski
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| Posted: Sat 12 Dec, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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You can also look at http://www.sword-gur.com/WEB/index_ax.html. I hava a sword made by this manufacturer. You can find my review on SBG. I did not do much hard sparrings (there are not too many opponents around with armor good enough to protect from full-strength blows with a heavy longsword. Unfortunately.), but so far the sword performed very well. The sword is pretty heavy (1.65 kg), and therefore is noticeably slower than hanwei practicals. This is a considerable disadvantage in unarmored combat. But when fighting in armor the difference in speed becomes negligible. Furthermore, when you hit'em, they do feel it. Unlike hits with Hanwei Tinker longsword. And if you do not want them to feel it, you can always reservo some power Oh, one thing. This manufacturer answers email very slowly.
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Paul Hansen
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| Posted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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I think there is one main thing to consider: there is, in my opinion, no sword that can do all things you would like it to do.
For instance, reenactment and sparring requires a safe edge, usually round with a 3mm radius. But for solo drills you want a sword that has the same weight and balance as a sharp sword. You may be able to combine these two requirements (safety and low weight) by using either an I-beam design or a "federschwert", but these swords will by definition not look like the "real" sword you need for living history. Alternatively, you can also go for a sword which looks "real" but is quite a bit heavier than it should be. This last sword type is the one most popular for reenactors who require both safety and period look. But for martial arts, I'd rather go for a lighter I-beam or feder.
Another thing to consider is that your sparring sword will quickly become scratched etc, and therefore I'd prefer to buy that one as cheaply as possible and save a bit more money for a nice looking "real" sword, which is either sharp or almost sharp. Whether or not an (almost) sharp sword would be legally acceptable for living history in the Netherlands is another question. But then again, I don't really understand the Dutch reenactment regulations anyway...
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Aleksei Sosnovski
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| Posted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Hansen wrote: | I think there is one main thing to consider: there is, in my opinion, no sword that can do all things you would like it to do.
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And I completely agree with this.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: |
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It looks like his website is having problems. I'm getting 404.
| Quote: | I think there is one main thing to consider: there is, in my opinion, no sword that can do all things you would like it to do.
For instance, reenactment and sparring requires a safe edge, usually round with a 3mm radius. But for solo drills you want a sword that has the same weight and balance as a sharp sword. |
I have not seen the people in my WMA group use different swords for solo drills and for paired drills and sparring. They use the same sword throughout the training session. Perhaps a different sword for solo drills would be better, but I don't have the money for two swords.
In that case I'd choose a blunt re-enacment/sparring sword. By using that in solo drills it may not teach me how a real sword handles, but it will teach me how that blunt will handle when I later on start using it in paired drills, sparring and re-enactment. I think my sparring partners and opponents will appreciate that I use a sword that I have trained with and that I know I can control :-)
Currently I am looking into a Pavel Moc Talhoffer sword. Someone has made me a very interesting offer. Our WMA trainer has one and he likes it a lot.
| Quote: | | But then again, I don't really understand the Dutch reenactment regulations anyway |
I haven't looked into it yet. I will when our WMA group starts planning to attend the next time. I do know that the Dutch arms law makes no difference between between a blunt and a sharp sword. They both fall into the same category and come with the same restrictions.
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Mon 14 Dec, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Aleksei Sosnovski wrote: | | Paul Hansen wrote: | I think there is one main thing to consider: there is, in my opinion, no sword that can do all things you would like it to do.
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And I completely agree with this. |
Absolutely Paul, I also agree. That is why I have two sparring swords for different uses.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all your help people :-) I finally went with the Pavel Moc Talhoffer sword that I wrote about earlier. I have used it at the training last Friday and it feels better than the other swords I handled so far.
I'll attempt to add some images.
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