Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Sun 22 Nov, 2009 9:03 pm
| David Teague wrote: |
... you guys like to stand with your left foot forward, Thomas Page is quite clear about how to stand with a targe and it's not with the left foot forward (as a right handed fencer) Reason, the very timing issue you brought up...
|
A lot of guys in the SCA like to lead with the right leg. Some take a stance similar to what I have seen in some broadsword videos. The footwork in the following video is very interesting to me. Just the foot work, not the blade work. You have to fast forward a bit to get to the fighting at 2:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMsC6DsBU8
I see that they really favor thrusts and small shields in this neck of the woods. Given that this is a Crown Tourney and both finalists are fighting a similar style, I have to assume that this style of fighting is popular in their kingdom.
Posts: 871 Location: Paris, France
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 3:52 am
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMsC6DsBU8 |
You know, I think that's the first time I see the "kneeling down" rule in action. Frankly I can't even watch the rest of the video after that, it's awful :eek: The guys who thought that one up surely were not after martial realism...
Posts: 225 Location: Ashburn, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 5:22 am
But it's only a flesh wound... I agree, it was jarring to see the whole thing broken up by the rules. Interesting. :cool:
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:14 am
Rules are Rules. But when I fight outside the SCA I like to play with NO RULES. Lots of fun. I have tested my fighting style a number of times to date in a no rules environment, it is highly effective.
All the fighting from the knees does is extend the fight. So you can just count the first person legged dead, if you wish. The reason fighting from the knees convention developed is because a lot of people were not satisfied ending a fight after hitting some one in the leg or arm. You don't have to continue the fight from your knees. You can yield the fight anytime you feel bested. There is a good number of people who do that. I am not one of them. On the West Coast I have heard that a lot of people call their own shots flat if they arm or leg someone in a tournament because they are looking for that glorious kill. That a personal preference. Personally, I like the idea of taking my opponent apart one piece at a time if I can.
Regardless, there is a specific reason I posted this video. I wanted David to take a look at the preferred stance of some SCA fighters.
Posts: 871 Location: Paris, France
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:34 am
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| Rules are Rules. But when I fight outside the SCA I like to play with NO RULES. Lots of fun. I have tested my fighting style a number of times to date in a no rules environment, it is highly effective. |
But when you do that you're not doing SCA combat (as you say yourself "outside the SCA"), so I fail to see what that has to do with the whole SCA debate. Saying that some of the rules are dumb is not a criticism of you as a fighter...
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:42 am
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Rules are Rules. But when I fight outside the SCA I like to play with NO RULES. Lots of fun. I have tested my fighting style a number of times to date in a no rules environment, it is highly effective. |
But when you do that you're not doing SCA combat (as you say yourself "outside the SCA"), so I fail to see what that has to do with the whole SCA debate. Saying that some of the rules are dumb is not a criticism of you as a fighter... |
To me... the point of SCA fighting is the same as the Medieval Behourdium Tradition. Both are training conventions to develop combat skills.
You can read about the Behourdium Tradition here:
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Tourneys/behourds.htm
If not for all the experience I have gained in the SCA within its ruleset, I would not be able to compete competently outside the SCA with no rules.
Posts: 237 Location: Arlington, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 7:12 am
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| To me... the point of SCA fighting is the same as the Medieval Behourdium Tradition. Both are training conventions to develop combat skills. |
Except that you aren't necessarily developing combat skills and the point of SCA fighting isn't about combat skills, it is about participating in combat sports (perhaps while pretending to participate in the Medieval Behourdium Tradition).
Let's be honest about this, the video you posted about (the one that you said you found the footwork interesting) was, from a martial perspective, horrific. There was almost no footwork. Sure, there was stepping, but that was usually circling a little out of measure and then wading in to narrow measure with almost no link to the action of the weapons. Now this video is very likely an example of good and effective fighting for the SCA; if so, I'd be unwise to dismiss it if I wanted to be a successful SCA fighter. However, if I was attempting to learn how to deal with sharps, fighting in the way this video shows would be nothing less than insane.
I'm not saying that effective SCA fighters couldn't learn effective martial techniques. In fact, I would be willing to bet that in most cases, the best SCA fighters would also be among the best martial artists if they applied themselves to that instead.
Look, I have nothing against the SCA, and in fact, I have considered joining. However, the point of my joining would not be to learn a martial art. The point would be to have fun in a relatively safe aggressive combat sport. I don't know why that is a bad thing and why it needs to be defended as "martial" to make it a legitimate activity.
Steve
Posts: 583
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 10:36 am
| Andrew Maxwell wrote: |
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
btw...you and I seem to have done the impossible! We've killed the SCA topic! Hooray for us! :) :) |
Sorry Michael... it's like a bruise, I can't resist prodding it to make sure it still hurts :D
Anyway, (and hopefully this will be my final post on this ;) ), I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding between you and me during the earlier unpleasantness (once again, sorry about that). I wasn't actually (intentionally) advocating always moving tip first- I was advocating always moving sword first. Quite a different thing, as you have also pointed out in this thread :)
Also, I'm only talking fractionally first- I try to have the terminus of strike, arm movement, torso movement and step all at approximately the same time. Unfortunately I don't currently have any video of my action to show you; overall I don't think we're miles apart anyway, from watching the way you cut (not that I think we are in complete agreement still, of course). If you look back you'll see what I was originally most against was moving the sword last. |
You know Andrew at first I didnīt really agree with this, but recently I spent some time working this out and I must say I now completely agree with you...at least when a shield isnīt involved. I think a shield lets one get away with more...not that one SHOULD mind you, but one CAN. If you donīt move the sword first, you donīt generate threat...but since we are talking mere fractions of a second, the more important part is that if you donīt move that sword first to take the line, you end up binding off line and then you die. I found that all those years of doing SCA has lead me to develop this bad habit of using my hips first...and quite frankly itīs kinda annoying me right now(I didnīt even notice I started doing the SCA hip motions when doing WMA). So I should really thank you for helping me. I plan on using this newfound nugget of knowledge in my next SCA greatsword match hehe.
Posts: 225 Location: Ashburn, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 10:38 am
| Steven Reich wrote: |
Look, I have nothing against the SCA, and in fact, I have considered joining. However, the point of my joining would not be to learn a martial art. The point would be to have fun in a relatively safe aggressive combat sport. I don't know why that is a bad thing and why it needs to be defended as "martial" to make it a legitimate activity.
Steve |
After watching the volumes of this debate unfold, you really hit the nail on the head. It is a legitimate activity. But after watching the video, and really have much the same reaction as others, I think Steven is right. And if this is something fun, and keeps you interested, then it is a worthwhile activity. But what I observed, and then followed through many related links, is not a martial art. Each serves a different purpose. Like apples and papayas...
:cool:
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 11:55 am
Why is it that when someone sees an SCA video and they don't like the particular foot work or blade work they dismiss the combat effectiveness completely of everything related to the SCA... Yet if they watch a WMA video and they don't agree with the techniques used or how they are used its now OK. Makes no sense and there is no logical consistency. When I see people fighting with 1.5 lb shanai and basically cutting from the wrist that does not look like anything realistic to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm1U0tFCRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9RxhsgCO9w
I see a lot of stuff I don't like in these videos, but I don't trash the whole system. I try to learn from it and take what works best.
Posts: 530
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 12:23 pm
Well when dooing WMA and making mistakes people are trying to learn the martial arts - they are making mistakes and learnng from them, but they are not trying to create something that only works within the given limitations of artificial ruleset. That is the main diference I think - SCA fighting syste is designed with specific ruleset in mind, same as, for example, Kendo - you have specific legal hits and so on. If one studdies german or italian longsword traditions, the arts learned are not designed for such circumstances, they are designed to work in combat, where therer are no permitted or disaloowed hit zones or such. Hence, people are unwilling to accept SCA as Martial Art. Sport, fine hobby? Certainly.
Posts: 237 Location: Arlington, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 12:34 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| Why is it that when someone sees an SCA video and they don't like the particular foot work or blade work they dismiss the combat effectiveness completely of everything related to the SCA... Yet if they watch a WMA video and they don't agree with the techniques used or how they are used its now OK. Makes no sense and there is no logical consistency. When I see people fighting with 1.5 lb shanai and basically cutting from the wrist that does not look like anything realistic to me. |
Because we see the same thing over and over and over in SCA videos. It's not just that footwork is bad (or non-existent), or blade-work is bad, or timing is bad, it is that these things are done on purpose to win. This is analogous to modern olympic fencing. What modern olympic fencers at the highest level train to do is not good from the point of view of a martial art. However, that is irrelevant because they aren't training for a martial art. If I joined the SCA and then started forcing historic technique over "sport effective" technique, I would be going about it the wrong way. Now I don't see SCA as useless for WMA training, provided you understand a few things when you go in; after all, there is no substitute for having a non-cooperative partner in front of you. However, if you use SCA as a primary training medium for western martial arts, then you're using the wrong tool for the job. Look, I understand the talent and skill involved to be a high-level SCA fighter--for that matter, I think that nearly every high-level SCA fighter probably has the talent to become a high-level Western martial artist. However, the two are not the same (even if there is some overlap) and thinking that they are shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what each or both of them are.
FWIW, I do dismiss "WMA" videos that show what is really just sports bouting under the WMA moniker. Those groups are out there and they aren't really much closer to WMA than is SCA.
Steve
Posts: 583
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 12:51 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
Why is it that when someone sees an SCA video and they don't like the particular foot work or blade work they dismiss the combat effectiveness completely of everything related to the SCA... Yet if they watch a WMA video and they don't agree with the techniques used or how they are used its now OK. Makes no sense and there is no logical consistency. When I see people fighting with 1.5 lb shanai and basically cutting from the wrist that does not look like anything realistic to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm1U0tFCRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9RxhsgCO9w
I see a lot of stuff I don't like in these videos, but I don't trash the whole system. I try to learn from it and take what works best. |
Umm why do you assume cutting from the wrist is unrealistic? I can cut from my wrist and cut half a mat...Iīd say that is plenty damaging for a VERY quick cut to an unarmored wrist or forearm. You really donīt have to hit like in the SCA to have a sword strike be effective in unarmored combat. In fact I do quite a few wrist cuts using a jian.
And I guess it has to be repeated again...but itīs not about the footwork or bladework...itīs about WHY those came about. If a group called themselves a WMA group and developed their technique to win at sparring matches as a primary goal, then I would consider that a martial sport as well as it has been pointed out that ALL sparring matches, be it with rattan or steel blunts all have artificial boundaries in place for safety. And SCA techniques are to win SCA matches...not to win in a real sword fight while in full chainmail.
edit: damn it Steven beat me to it and said it better :P .
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 1:37 pm
| P. Cha wrote: |
... SCA techniques are to win SCA matches...not to win in a real sword fight while in full chainmail.
|
Would you feel safe wearing just a mail shirt and an nasal helm and having an SCA fighter hit you with a Type X sword? It is typical for one or two people to have a rib break at Penssic every year with rattan swords that flex and spread out the impact. Imagine the weapons had an edge to concentrate the force on. Even in the SCA we have what are called "excessive" blows which are prohibited. Most people can not hit at that level, but the knights could.
Posts: 237 Location: Arlington, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 1:58 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| Would you feel safe wearing just a mail shirt and an nasal helm and having an SCA fighter hit you with a Type X sword? |
That's irrelevant to the whole conversation. After all, I wouldn't feel safe wearing full football gear and having an NHL defensive line man tackle me, but that isn't a martial art, either.
If you don't see the difference between the SCA videos you posted and even the two videos of guys going at it with Shinai-based longsword simulators, then I guess I understand why this thread has gone on for almost 30 pages.
Steve
Posts: 225 Location: Ashburn, VA
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 1:59 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
| P. Cha wrote: | ... SCA techniques are to win SCA matches...not to win in a real sword fight while in full chainmail.
|
Would you feel safe wearing just a mail shirt and an nasal helm and having an SCA fighter hit you with a Type X sword? It is typical for one or two people to have a rib break at Penssic every year with rattan swords that flex and spread out the impact. Imagine the weapons had an edge to concentrate the force on. Even in the SCA we have what are called "excessive" blows which are prohibited. Most people can not hit at that level, but the knights could. |
We discussed this line of reasoning earlier. It's not about how hard someone hits. I took serious hits as a kid playing football. In sport fencing I had bruises and blades tear through protective clothing... it doesn't come down to that. Boxer's hit with authority and are not martial arts oriented. I am sure I would find an SCA fighter a hard hitter. Some of them may even study martial arts and be accomplished martial artists in WMA or eastern arts. But that doesn't make the SCA system a martial art.
Interesting, but circular discussion. :cool:
Posts: 616 Location: Toronto, Canada
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 2:07 pm
| Steven Reich wrote: |
| David Teague wrote: | | AND your own Michael Edelson ( with überlaufen action) & David Teague ( with kilt liftingtm action defense) Historic Fencing Action Figures |
Email within the next 10 minutes a get a bonus free Pregnant Yak action figure ;)
(Okay, so only David gets this one, but trust me, it's a funny joke if you were there).
[ Linked Image ]
Steve |
A reference to a clumsy student of the Master of Sinanju?
Posts: 650 Location: Lacey, Wa US
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 2:21 pm
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMsC6DsBU8 |
You know, I think that's the first time I see the "kneeling down" rule in action. Frankly I can't even watch the rest of the video after that, it's awful :eek: The guys who thought that one up surely were not after martial realism... |
Yeah I don't take a knee anymore.If you cut my leg I consider it a loss. I'm not there to learn how to fight from my knees; I'd rather learn how not to be cut on the leg. I hate the "leg rule", and frankly a lot of the other conventions.
Posts: 409 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Mon 23 Nov, 2009 2:38 pm
| Kel Rekuta wrote: |
| Steven Reich wrote: | | David Teague wrote: | | AND your own Michael Edelson ( with überlaufen action) & David Teague ( with kilt liftingtm action defense) Historic Fencing Action Figures |
Email within the next 10 minutes a get a bonus free Pregnant Yak action figure ;)
(Okay, so only David gets this one, but trust me, it's a funny joke if you were there).
[ Linked Image ]
Steve |
A reference to a clumsy student of the Master of Sinanju? |
OK Kel, I'll "kiss" & tell.
Steve and I had gone around and around on the whole balls of the feet vs heel toe controversy over at SFI a couple of years ago. When Steve got to see me free play with Sean Hayes with my Highland foot work ( with major balls of feet actionTM) he side something along the lines of:
" Not bad, considering you look like a Pregnant Yak when you fence"
:eek:
That's the joke.
Bill T,
The first vid you posted is good...
good foot work, good use of measure, techniques from the system that are easily
recognizable for what they are.
Your problem is the belief that you must hack a person in half with each blow. It's not really needed when doing freeplay in T-shirts and shorts with any trainer. Nor is it needed in period with sharps as the system shown is an unarmoured style. The footwork, body movement and the movement of the sword all come together to power the blow. ( I know you once studied WMA via the German Longsword, you should know this).
Cheers,
DT
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