Hi Vincent,

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:

Hello Matt, If you don't mind I have a question about your tip-first cutting mechanic as shown here (at least at the beginning, I'm afraid I haven't watched the whole 8min ;) ):

Don't mind at all, that is why it is out there! I will say that that video is only exploring one way of cutting for a certain thread on the WMAC forums, and is not representation of all my cutting.

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I'd like to hear your thoughts about the relationship of this mechanic to matters of range and stepping. When you cut tip first from vom tag, your sword meets the target (i.e. is in long point) roughly halfway through your step. This means that your range is a bit shortened (you don't strike a whole step away from where you started), and also that you finish your step during the follow through/recovery. It's true that your sword is sooner in front of you, however don't you think that being exposed and advancing while recovering is also dangerous? Doesn't that leave you more vulnerable to counters after the cut (nachreisen I think it's called in German?)?

You observations are correct on what is happening. However, I don't think this is a 'tip first' matter, but one of 'sword first'. You can move the sword first in a number of ways faster to the target than your feet land, which I think is the subject of your question.

On the distance thing- Yes, at times I am short, but I was starting slightly further out than was needed, and I was on soft sand which made acceleration hard. I think it is a matter of doing what you think is best at the time. If speed of sword to the target is needed, I think it is safe to leave your feet behind, assuming you can make that distance.

As to the being exposed thing, I'm not sure how that makes you more exposed than any other type of cut. Again a matter of over-commitment if you can't adjust for a threatening action the opponent makes. Something that is also in the realm of reflexes and athletic ability, not just technique.

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At other times you stop the sword at longpoint and finish the step, which I think is safer, but also less efficient for cutting. There the cut becomes almost like a transition to longpoint followed by a thrust, which is perfectly sound as well but not always what you want to do with a cutting weapon.

Yes I agree that the half-cut is less effective. A pure tip-first half-cut is really only good to the head IMO. A more 'slashing' half cut can be effective in other areas. Depends what you are trying to achieve, I guess.

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It all boils down to hands being faster than feet in this instance: if you cut full-speed with your arms your advancing foot will be late, or at the very least the weight transfer will not be complete. So your tip first mechanic does: 1) launch foot and sword (roughly at the same time to the naked eye) 2) strike (foot is about half-way) 3) recover and finish the step During phase 3 you are vulnerable, advancing and probably closer to the enemy. An alternative mechanic (that is used in kenjutsu) does: 1) launch foot 2) launch sword (foot is about half-way) 3) strike and finish the step at about the same time 4) recover without motions of foot or body Of course this opens you up at the beginning but it covers more range (one full step at the instant of the strike), is safer at the end (your foot has finished so you are not closing in further, and you can even step back during recovery if need be), and has arguably more power, or at least is less tiring for the same power. I honestly think both mechanics should be used, depending on the situation. But the second one is I believe unfairly dismissed in HEMA right now... Perhaps because the first one is not completely intuitive and thus seems more "advanced"... Regards,

Yes, I agree on both being useful.

Bill-

You have several times now described SCA shots as a Zwerch. But every one you've shown is long edge from the right. Given the textual descriptions of zwerchau, how can you call these shots a zwerch?

I'm not saying it didn't work. But it's a mittelhau - not a zwerch. Meyer's dussack material includes a variety of mittelhau some of which are similar to some SCA strikes.

The only zwerch I've ever seen from a SCAdian was in one of Duke Gaston Veiuxchamps Res Ducis videos. He shows a short edge mittelhau from the right and he calls it a retik(sp?). He describes them being used for exactly the kind of thing I've seen you recommend for a zwerch. But he says the shot wasn't used any more because if you miss it hurts your wrist (which sounds to me like a combination of overcommitment and not having Meyer's Running Off mechanics).

Cheers,
Steven

Hi Steve- Zwerch with the short edge is usually only done at close range with the single handed sword in the SCA. At a distance the long edge gives a better extension. I always figured the reason for the names of Long and Short is because of the range advantages each side provides.

I am not 100% sure on this but don't some WMA people also do the Zwerchhue with the long edge? I thought I had read some interpretations that use the Zwerch in that manor. I am looking forward to hearing some feedback on this from other WMA people.

I have always regarded the key distinction of a Zwech being that it is done with the hilt high and horizontal, not which side of the blade is used. Zwerch to the left side is always done with the long edge so there is no issue there.

I nominated this topic as a "Spotlight Topic". All you have to do is click on the link at the top of the page.

Hello Bill,

Well, since it's been declared that SCA sword and shield is based off of Highland Broadsword stop calling it a Zwerchhau. It's a "Inside horizontal cut".( Which is the mittelhau in the common German fencing terminology.)

A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.

Arming sword and messer have related specialty strikes to the longsword system's master strikes but require minor to major bio-mechanical changes to execute with a one handed sword. The other issue is they don't call the cross strike a "Zwerchhau". Each system has it's own terminology. Since I have yet to study arming sword I can't tell what that strike is called in that weapon's system, I can tell you with the messer it's called the "Entrüsthau".

Arming sword and messer both use the short edge from the strong side and the strike comes from low guard with power coming from (gasp!) the hips and elbow (along with footwork and other body movement).I have yet to see anybody doing those combined body mechanics to achieve a short edge strike to the opponent's left side in a SCA vid. (Yes Virgina, not only is there a Santa Claus, but the "Zwerchhau" is delivered with a short edge strike using a thumb grip from the users strong side).

Now everything I've listed comes from the study of the 14th and 15th century German Masters. While I do have Meyer, I don't work from it. If Meyer, Sutor or Mair have a long edge "Zwerchhau" it would be later period than the works I study (and used with a training weapon for only sport).

So Bill, I "like" how you were able to read my prior post and only take this fact away from it. "Everybody, please don't let my prior post make you think I don't respect the SCA, I do." I've only said variations upon that same theme in this thread 20 or more pages back.

I know you have a bit of German Longsword so you like to use it's terminology with your SCA movements. Problem is, it doesn't fit most of the time. Add in the fact that the basic SCA sword and shield does seen to use "distorted" guards from saber/broadsword/ backsword systems, maybe that would be the terminology to learn and use when describing movements, actions, and attacks.

Cheers,

DT