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M. Eversberg II

Posts: 1,435 Location: California, Maryland, USA

Wed 11 Nov, 2009 5:17 pm

Ben Potter wrote:

M. Eversberg II wrote:

Will the blade become broader during the forging or is it going to stay around that size?

M.

Yes, the blade will gain about a 1/8 to 1/4 in in width and about 1/2 -1 in in length, as well as a curve.

I think after doing a fair amount of research I decided to go with a more historical design. NOT a reproduction but rather a compilation of parts from extent messer from museums and private collections, with my own take of course.

Hope you like it.

I'm certain I will like it :p

Maybe one day when I have disposable income I will commission something similar. Until that day, though, I'll just eyeball your work :)

M.

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Posts: 347 Location: Western Idaho

Wed 11 Nov, 2009 10:35 pm

Done forging (I may do some "tweaking" when I normalize it. The weirdness at the end of the tang is going to be rivit(s) for the pommel.
[ Linked Image ]

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Posts: 305 Location: Maine USA

Thu 12 Nov, 2009 5:44 am

Ben Potter wrote:

I'm thinking of going with something like this. (and doing more research then a "historical" one)

Just ignore the grip as it is all out of proportion, and not the right shape. I like the tighter twist, and square cross-section of the quillons.

I REALLY like this.

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz

Posts: 864 Location: Michigan, USA

Thu 12 Nov, 2009 6:26 am

I like what you're doing with the entire project, kinda' journalizing it here and fielding
comments etc. I didn't think I'd be checking in daily, cuz I didn't think you'd be plowing
along as relatively quickly as you are. Keep up the reports ! Keeps me coming back
to tak a gander ... B-)

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M. Eversberg II

Posts: 1,435 Location: California, Maryland, USA

Thu 12 Nov, 2009 8:28 pm

Clearly the source of his power are those runes :)

M.

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Posts: 4 Location: Windy City, USA

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 6:44 am

So after going over this thread and your design two things occured to me. First, is it normal for your messer to look so much like a falchion? That's not rhetorical, I honestly do not know the answer. Second, it was my impression that messers had a mild curve which first bent forward of the grip and then gradually came a little bit behind the grip such that when a clip-point was put on the blade the apex of the point was in-line with the grip. At the very least this is true in the engravings on training that I am familiar with. I put an attachment pic from a fetchbutch to illustrate my point (Meyer 1600ish). Look at foreground for alignment, and also back-left for the neck hit.

I must say though that I do remember seeing somewhere an example where the point was well behind the grip. However I think having the point aligned is much more useful, especially when I consider the use of the point in Meyer seems to be always on small target like the neck and eyes(face).

Attachment: 151.07 KB
point alignment_look at couple in foreground.jpg

point alignment_look at couple in foreground.jpg

a perfect example of what I mentioned on the point to grip alignment.

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Posts: 702 Location: Whitestone, NY

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 7:42 am

Geoffrey C. wrote:

So after going over this thread and your design two things occured to me. First, is it normal for your messer to look so much like a falchion? That's not rhetorical, I honestly do not know the answer. Second, it was my impression that messers had a mild curve which first bent forward of the grip and then gradually came a little bit behind the grip such that when a clip-point was put on the blade the apex of the point was in-line with the grip. At the very least this is true in the engravings on training that I am familiar with. I put an attachment pic from a fetchbutch to illustrate my point (Meyer 1600ish). Look at foreground for alignment, and also back-left for the neck hit.

I must say though that I do remember seeing somewhere an example where the point was well behind the grip. However I think having the point aligned is much more useful, especially when I consider the use of the point in Meyer seems to be always on small target like the neck and eyes(face).

Isn't that a dusack? I'm asking because the messers pictured in Meyer's fetechbutch are very different then the ones in the Codex Wallerstein. In fact if we look at plate 57 of the codex we see a messer much closer to what Ben is trying to replicate. Again please forgive my limited knowledge in this, but I think because the Codex was written or compiled about 100 yrs before Meyer what we're looking at is older techniques applied to a more modern weapon, meaning the dusack. If anyone with more knowledge would like to chime in here I'd appreciate it as I'd really like to learn.

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Posts: 656

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 8:27 am

Why do I feel a headache coming on? :lol: Messer, in general, seems to means knife. For the purposes of our discussion messer means a big fighting knife. I can imagine that a German speaker would call a bowie knife a messer, the term isn't that proscriptive as far as I have been able to determine. There has also been some discussion that what distinguishes a messer from a single edged short sword or a falchion is the style of handle inasmuch as messers seem to have scale style handles.

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Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 9:05 am

Ken Speed wrote:

Why do I feel a headache coming on? :lol: Messer, in general, seems to means knife. For the purposes of our discussion messer means a big fighting knife. I can imagine that a German speaker would call a bowie knife a messer, the term isn't that proscriptive as far as I have been able to determine. There has also been some discussion that what distinguishes a messer from a single edged short sword or a falchion is the style of handle inasmuch as messers seem to have scale style handles.

You're pretty much right. The word messer literally does mean "knife", and applies to any knife. Historical sources often use the term langes messer (pronounced "lahng-ihs mess-uhr", meaning long knife) to refer to the weapon we're talking about (though even there, the term is vague). So the defining characteristic is that it needs to be a knife, which typically means it will have a knife blade (more often than not single edged, but can be straignt or curved), and a typical knife handle (generally two slabs rivited to the tang). Ken's analogy of a bowie knife is a good example, as would be a machete. A langes messer is a tool that is being used as a weapon (or a weapon that has been created around the design of a tool). Its a very vague definition, but then again, so is the definition of "longsword". :)

Geoffrey, the Meyer treatise is showing specifically the dussack. That said, the use of the dussack is directly related to the use of the messer. Dussack training was used for more or less all one handed weapons that had a heavy emphasis on the cut (as opposed to Meyer's rapier section, which is still a cutting weapon but has more focus on the thrust).

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Posts: 147 Location: Overland Park, Kansas

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:13 am

Ben Potter wrote:

I think after doing a fair amount of research I decided to go with a more historical design. NOT a reproduction but rather a compilation of parts from extent messer from museums and private collections, with my own take of course.

I like that you are going with a more historical design. I also agree with others in that a curved hilt seems inappropriate for a messer. It might look and feel good, but it wouldn't be very traditional. Having a slightly long straight hilt is useful in applying the many wrestling techniques that involve hooking the wrist or neck with the hilt.

I am looking forward to seeing how your work progresses.

Cheers,

t.

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Posts: 2,167

Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:58 pm

I like option two of the four that you presented Ben, but with an elongated guard.

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Posts: 347 Location: Western Idaho

Fri 20 Nov, 2009 8:25 am

Sorry I haven't posted in a while I had a couple of commissions to get out the door and am renovating my shop for pattern welding :). Hopefully, I'll get some done on the messer today.

I have a couple of questions for those who actually "use" messers, (these are mostly about the originals)

Where is the "pivot point" supposed to be(held at the cross point down and moved perpendicular to the cross, what point on the blade stays stationary)?

What angle is should the final bevel be, not the flats of the blade but the actual edge?

Are the bevels on messers normally straight or convex?

Thanks

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Posts: 347 Location: Western Idaho

Mon 23 Nov, 2009 8:49 am

I have a couple of commissions(steady income for a bit :D ) that I need to work on so this piece will be on the back burner for a bit, I'll try to make some progress. Thanks for your patience.

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Posts: 347 Location: Western Idaho

Fri 27 Nov, 2009 9:46 am

I decided to go a little more historical with this piece.

Here is the working sketch:
[ Linked Image ]

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Posts: 530

Fri 27 Nov, 2009 10:27 am

Excelent choice! Can't wait to see it in metal.

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Posts: 94 Location: Slovakia

Fri 27 Nov, 2009 12:43 pm

Much better indeed :)

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Posts: 225 Location: Ashburn, VA

Fri 27 Nov, 2009 2:39 pm

I like this a lot, Ben. Can't wait to see it! :cool:

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Posts: 211 Location: United States

Fri 27 Nov, 2009 3:22 pm

Ben Potter wrote:

I decided to go a little more historical with this piece.

Here is the working sketch:
[ Linked Image ]

I was going to vote for #2 of the four shown on the previous page but now I'm going with this design. I really like it and I look forward to seeing your progress on this project.

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Posts: 347 Location: Western Idaho

Sat 30 Jan, 2010 9:15 am

Here is a video of forging this blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuPmW62WasU

Enjoy!

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Posts: 443 Location: Granby (QC) canada

Wed 24 Mar, 2010 5:17 pm

i can't wait to see some pics of the finished piece :D

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