[Craig Peters]

Aside from tenative dates given to surviving antique swords, what evidence do we have for the existence of long swords in the 13th century? To be more precise, it appears that a number of Type XIIa and Type XIIIa swords are dated to the latter portion of the 13th century and possibly up to the mid 14th century. Is there any evidence in written sources, or effigies, or period images that unambiguously date these sorts of swords to the 13th century? Or are we just relying on speculative dates provided for artifacts?

[Luka Borscak]

This XIIa has arms of a landgraf of Thuringen and Hesse and it belonged to Konrad, Grand Master of the Teutonic Order, 1239/40. This gives a precise dating to it.

[Craig Peters]

[Luka Borscak]

Well, we can't be 100% sure, but his coat of arms on it is one very good reason to believe in it.

[Craig Peters]

Right, but from what I can see of the arms, it's just the imperial eagle, which suggests the sword could have belonged to any number of people. It's not like that particular set of arms was unique to the Teutonic Order.

[David E. Farrell]

[Luka Borscak]

[Chad Arnow]

Please see this thread for info.

I think these swords are more great swords (a period term) than longswords (a modern term often use for swords with some decent thrusting ability), but that's splitting hairs.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Chad,

I'm not sure if we can document the English word 'longsword' this early, but certainly the German 'langes schwerte' is documentable to the late 14th century, if not earlier.

I believe George Silver uses the term longsword in the 16th, and Shakespeare does as well, so it is a 'period' rather than modern term.

All the best,

Christian

[Chad Arnow]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Chad,

Yes, it's hard to know exactly what fits into the term Langes Schwerte in 1389, the usual dating for the earliest record of Liechtenauer's teachings.

And, I agree that "great sword of war" is the better term for these wider-bladed, hand and a half swords of the late 13th and 14th centuries.

Best,

CHT

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Elling Polden]

The lack of a descriptive term, and the lack of depictions, would indicate that while there are long handled swords in styles sugesting 13th or early 14th century provenance, they had not yet become a "thing."

By this I mean that they where not yet sepperated from other long bladed swords in peoples minds.
Keep in mind that by 13th century standards, a 3 ft 2" /95cm greatsword isn't really exceptionally long; Many single handed striking swords are the same length.

Also, using a sword with two hands in a battlefield context without heavy armor is a very good way to be speared, shot, javelined or stoned to death. Before the 100 years war, the people with heavy armour spent most of their time on horseback, and used their swords onehanded.
Only when these started to dismount, and figth with two handed spears and pole weapons on foot, the two handed sword would become usefull enough to form a seperate category.

[Jared Smith]

What Ellington said makes sense to me. Swords similar to what we generically term "longswords" likely existed earlier than when they became common. A few of the possible ranges of dates speculated for longer swords within the Features typology section seems to suggest great swords or longsword type forms earlier than 14th/15th century. Henry the Young King (late 12th century) was described as having walked out onto battlefield with his body guards carrying a large sword with an "uncommonly" long grip. He also was known for foraging or adventuring into enemy territory unarmoured. This may have been unconventional, but it seems he was known for training with all manner of weapons and sometimes trying unconventional tactics. (I would say shield and sword were the norm at this time, but he evidently experimented with different tactics, alternative armour, and perhaps uncommon forms of weapons.)

[Craig Peters]

From what I read in the other thread, Oakshott seemed pretty emphatic that we are not to understand these weapons as being two handed swords, by which I believe he was referring to longswords by their English name in the 15th century. Even if many of them had grips that were equally as long as those of longswords, he seemed to suggest that they were primarily used as single handed swords. At the very least, there doesn't seem to have been a fully developed/articulated longsword system of fencing at that time.

[Lafayette C Curtis]