Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 8:48 pm
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
I don't want to derail your thread too much, but some unsharpened MRL swords can cut noodles really well, while some sharpened swords do less well. I find noodle cutting to be more about edge alignment and blade speed than sharpness. But that's just me. :) |
Hi Chad,
No worries at all about derailing. This train is in pieces already. :)
Of course cutting pool noodles requires velocity and edge alignment...they are a pleasant challenge because of this. However, all that being equal, I find very little difference between the various sword types when cutting them.
| Quote: |
And as I noted above, I know that noodles and tatami are different, I just thought it was interesting that the Munich caused your compatriot to alter his technique. What exactly did he alter and did it help improve the cuts? Obviously telegraphing things doesn't help the fight, but did he help his cuts with the alteration? Was he consciously doing things differently or was he just over compensating? |
When you hit a mat with a Brescia, the sword just zips right through the thing with very little percieved resistance. It's a beatiful, joyous experiene. The Munich, and Svante, feel like the mat grabs them and tries to hold them. This is those thick cross sections forcing the mat apart faster than it wants to go.
My "compatriot" :) (his name is Brian) put more oomph into his cuts to compensate for this grabbing, and yes, it improved the results. Yes, he used a bit too much power because of that, but not so much so that he compromised his goals in any way. The question of telegraphing is not really relevant. If I'm attacking you, I want you to know exactly what's coming at you for many reasons outside the scope of this topic except in a very few and rare instances. What I don't want to do is give you a tempo to exploit in measure, and he does not do that.
| Quote: |
| I found the Munich moved easily, got up to speed easily, and went where I wanted it to go easily. I haven't yet had the chance (or money) to cut tatami, but I guess I'm surprised that a change in target medium would cause a technique change significant enough to warrant mentioning. |
I'm surprised you feel this way. A change in target medium can change everything. Try cutting a bar of steel. Its an extreme example, but it's a change in target medium.
| Quote: |
| I would think getting the sword lined up and up to speed would be the same regardless of target, though I think that's part of what's being discussed here (whether cutting technique is the same as what you do elsewhere or not). Swords of different weights and/or handling characteristics may of course take more or less time to move with, but I wouldn't think they would fundamentally alter basic technique in any significant way unless the sword was very new to the user. |
As far as cutting technique being the same, consider that in the "elsewhere" I'm not actually cutting anything. Swords are not ligthsabers and we can't just whack people with them and hope for the best...we have to cut with them. So if the techniques are different from what I do elsewhere, it is the elswhere that is the artifact, not the cutting.
Different swords do not alter basic technique. They alter required force and velocity. The Munich, Svante and other war swords require more, it's as simple as that. It is the required force/velocity that may or may not alter technique.
| Quote: |
| Fascinating discussion. :) |
Yes, I love talking about cutting. :)
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Sun 27 Sep, 2009 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 8:52 pm
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Congratulations on a very interesting and educational cutting video.
Refining one's skill in cutting may mean that the technique is somewhat different than within a fight as the goal is different and partial cuts combined with flowing to another cut or protective move may mean that the focus is more on precision and the geometry of the attack than in the pure power generation: The optimum use of force being less in a fight than in test cutting but the skill and power generation of successful test cutting translation to having a power reserve i.e. being able to cut well making being able to cut less but with more control than if one hasn't developed a hight level of cutting skills ?
Just my " theoretical " musings here as my personal experience with test cutting is very limited. ;) :cool:
As you said in your Topic dealing with training artifacts, all the different training methods and skills learned by each method or tool or type of training are not simulating actual combat but each permit to concentrate on some of the skills that would be used in a real encounter. ( Restating in my own words your thoughts and I hope accurately !? If I'm misinterpreting anything let me know. :D :cool: ). |
I'm speechless.
I love you, Jean Thibodeau. :)
You totally nailed it. In fact, I am going to quote you on a different forum, if you don't mind.
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 9:00 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
I'm speechless.
I love you, Jean Thibodeau. :)
You totally nailed it. In fact, I am going to quote you on a different forum, if you don't mind. |
I don't mind, but my " Inflated Ego/head " may explode from the compliment and the nice words. ;) :D :cool:
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 9:08 pm
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
I don't mind, but my " Inflated Ego/head " may explode from the compliment and the nice words. ;) :D :cool: |
Jean, I want to stress one of your points and expand it a bit...
People in WMA tend to expect too much from cutting.
It is not, and cannot be, a simulation of combat. A tatami mat is nothing like a person. If I wanted to simulate a person I would need a 180lb tatami mat shaped like a person and wearing clothing with a bamboo skull and bones. Then I would need it to move and attack me. :)
Cutting is learning a skill in isolation, and I think it is that skill we should look at when evaluating it, without bringing in criteria from unreasonable expectations.
Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 6:43 am
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Hi Chad,
No worries at all about derailing. This train is in pieces already. :)
Of course cutting pool noodles requires velocity and edge alignment...they are a pleasant challenge because of this. However, all that being equal, I find very little difference between the various sword types when cutting them. |
Well, my own experience and that of others at the many cutting parties I've attended is a little different, and that's okay. I think it just shows that there are not necessarily concrete, hard-and-fast rules when it comes to some things--they are user-specific. I've seen some people struggle against noodles with a particular sword, when another works just fine for them. But we don't have the same level of training you do. :)
| Quote: |
I'm surprised you feel this way. A change in target medium can change everything. Try cutting a bar of steel. Its an extreme example, but it's a change in target medium. |
I've cut pumpkins and noodles and they are different when you hit them (of course) and some swords that fare well against noodles do less well against pumpkins because of the cross-sectional resistance (of course). But I didn't find myself consciously altering any aspect of my "technique" (term used loosely :) ) to approach the pumpkins rather than the noodles. I try to have my blade up to speed and the edge aligned where I want it regardless of what I'm cutting. I guess I don't lessen my strikes for mere foam noodles nor increase them pumpkins in terms of velocity or force. :)
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 8:10 am
Hi Chad,
Aside from tatami, I've cut torso sized pells covered in up to 30 layers or linen, sides of beef, bamboo, hardwood dowels, pork shoulders, rolled up area rugs and much more stuff I can't even remember now. Not all of them call for different types of cuts, but some do. A slight change in target media, such as from noodles to pumkins, won't really illustrate this, but as the differences start to pile up, things change.
Remember my padded jack cutting tests? Remember how the different swords produced drastically different results against the jack? The tatami is a less intense version...the better cutting swords need a lot less power, the ones that aren't so hot require more oomph, which alters how you move.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 8:03 pm
btw...just waned to add, cutting pool noodles is not easy, and if you can do so reliably and effectively you're way ahead of many WMA students in terms of cutting.
Posts: 545 Location: Boston
Wed 30 Sep, 2009 7:05 am
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Hi Chad,
Aside from tatami, I've cut torso sized pells covered in up to 30 layers or linen, sides of beef, bamboo, hardwood dowels, pork shoulders, rolled up area rugs and much more stuff I can't even remember now. Not all of them call for different types of cuts, but some do. A slight change in target media, such as from noodles to pumkins, won't really illustrate this, but as the differences start to pile up, things change. |
I'd been meaning to ask about this since you hinted at it. Thanks for including that as well. You also indicated that you've cut targets with typical clothing type covering. How'd that go?
Cheers,
Steven
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Wed 30 Sep, 2009 9:34 am
| Steven H wrote: |
| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hi Chad,
Aside from tatami, I've cut torso sized pells covered in up to 30 layers or linen, sides of beef, bamboo, hardwood dowels, pork shoulders, rolled up area rugs and much more stuff I can't even remember now. Not all of them call for different types of cuts, but some do. A slight change in target media, such as from noodles to pumkins, won't really illustrate this, but as the differences start to pile up, things change. |
I'd been meaning to ask about this since you hinted at it. Thanks for including that as well. You also indicated that you've cut targets with typical clothing type covering. How'd that go?
Cheers,
Steven |
Hi Steven,
Hacking, percussive cuts are completely ineffective against linen, they do absolutely noting. You might penetrate a bit of wool with one, but you need too much oomph.
To cut textiles you need to draw the sword, the more the better. Curved swords do much better than straight swords here. To effectively penetrate textiles does not require a ton of force, but it does require that drawing motion. This precludes the "sword first" percussive strikes that we use for entry, where the sword enters point first rather than hilt first.
Here is an example of a percussive "sword first" strike:
http://www.newyorklongsword.com/movies/cut2.wmv
So to penetrate multiple layers of linen and wool, you need to enter more with the hilt than with the point, as this allows for the drawing motion, which is not really there with the percussive entry cut. This is the type of cut we use in the mat cutting videos we put out, because the first type can't cut a mat.
We're going to be releaseing an instructional video on cutting that explains my views on this stuff in a couple of weeks.
Posts: 260 Location: Lost in Texas
Wed 30 Sep, 2009 7:14 pm
Percussive Effect of Sword Blow Opposed to Cutting
Michael your experience shows in your video and in your thread dialogue but there is one thing I wish to take issue in your argument. A percussive blow is often as effective or even more so that a cut because of the trauma it causes. If your opponent renders a strike which misses and exposes his back, a sword blow to the spine can incapacitate him as Mike Loades demonstrates in his series on swords. Blows to the joints such as elbows and knees can severely handicap an opponent if delivered with enough force to cause pain above the threshold tolerated by combat. A good swordsman could win with a blunt sword over an opponent with a sharpened one which has been proven again and again.
In sum too much emphasis is placed on cutting rather than injury caused by force of the blow. "Candy is dandy but licquor is quicker" as the old saying goes. I have have always held that the sword is an iron bar that can cut. One can slice and dice with finesse or one can slash and bash. I would prefer to win considering the alternative so good old slash and bash works for me. Put your opponent down hard and fast. The Japanese Samurai Musashi won one of his famous duels with a wooden club carved from an oar against an Odachi.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Wed 30 Sep, 2009 8:29 pm
Re: Percussive Effect of Sword Blow Opposed to Cutting
Hello Harry,
| Harry J. Fletcher wrote: |
| Michael your experience shows in your video and in your thread dialogue... |
Thank you!
| Quote: |
| ...but there is one thing I wish to take issue in your argument. A percussive blow is often as effective or even more so that a cut because of the trauma it causes. |
I do enjoy an intelligent argument, and you have presented one. Agreed, a percussive blow can be as effective as a cut, and even more effective than some cuts, though having your head cracked open your rib cage split apart kinda takes the cake there. :)
However, a percussive blow has to target specific areas to be effective, otherwise it's just a bruise. Areas like the head, the spine as you pointed out, along with joints, fingers and other hard areas. Except for the head, these are very difficult targets to hit, whereas a deep cut almost anywhere can finish you.
| Quote: |
| If your opponent renders a strike which misses and exposes his back, a sword blow to the spine can incapacitate him as Mike Loades demonstrates in his series on swords. |
Very true. However two things make that something I personally wouldn't spend time training to do...one is that no swordsman worth his salt should ever expose his back. Unless you mean sideways? In that case the second point is even more true, and that is that the spine is not an easy target to hit with a sword, especially in motion (and doubly so if it is exposed only sideways). A good cut pretty much anywhere would do just as much harm.
| Quote: |
| Blows to the joints such as elbows and knees can severely handicap an opponent if delivered with enough force to cause pain above the threshold tolerated by combat. A good swordsman could win with a blunt sword over an opponent with a sharpened one which has been proven again and again. |
Agreed on both counts. A good swordsman can beat a bad swordsman with a broomstick, I think. But it would really help if the broomstick had a cross. :)
| Quote: |
| In sum too much emphasis is placed on cutting rather than injury caused by force of the blow.. |
Too much emphasis on cutting? You have no idea how much this made me laugh (not at you...at the irony). The reason is I get a LOT of grief from the WMA community for the emphasis I place on cutting, and cutting is only a small and occasional part of our training. I think the WMA community doesn't place anywhere near enough emphasis on cutting. Here we are using instruments designed to cut, and we just want to bash people with them. :)
On the issue of force, the thing that most people get wrong about cutting is that it takes a lot of force--it doesn't. It would take a far greater amount of force to break someone's bone through his clothing than it would to cut through that clothing. Needless to say, that force can leave one even more overexposed than the full arc of a cutting blow. Head, elbows, knees, etc. are the exception, as you don't have to break them to stop someone.
Oh, and if I recall correctly, Musashi specifically made that wooden sword because he did not want to kill Sasaki Kojiro, considering him a fine swordsman, and I believe killing him was what made Musashi give up the sword and live on a mountain, writing his book.
Posts: 545 Location: Boston
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 7:12 am
Michael-
Are there any sources besides Doebringer which describe cutting mechanics? Though Doebringer is fairly sparse on the matter it's generally been interpreted as a tip first mechanic.
Have you tried a tip first and then draw into a hanger cutting mechanic? My gut says this would also be effective at cutting clothes and flesh, but I have much less cutting experience (and I don't have my own sharp yet).
Cheers,
Steven
Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 8:25 am
Cheers for the video Michael. Some nice cuts there.
It inspired me to do some test cutting of my own, and since I just got a new Albion, what better thing to do?
Alas, only water bottles though. :-(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJgPEnmnxk
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 9:35 am
| Steven H wrote: |
Michael-
Are there any sources besides Doebringer which describe cutting mechanics? Though Doebringer is fairly sparse on the matter it's generally been interpreted as a tip first mechanic.
Have you tried a tip first and then draw into a hanger cutting mechanic? My gut says this would also be effective at cutting clothes and flesh, but I have much less cutting experience (and I don't have my own sharp yet).
Cheers,
Steven |
Steven,
I'm working on a power generation/cutting class for Chivalric Weekend 2010, as well as an instructional video (for putting on Youtube) and putting together notes on this very subject. In short, there are hints, but nothing concrete. And what hints there are, are open to interpretation to a much greater extent than most other things in WMA.
Dobringer says, "For example, if someone intends to strike or thrust, it goes just like if a string would be attached to the sword and the tip or edge would be pulled to an opening of the adversary..." (translation T. Stoeppler)
First, it says "tip or edge". Now it could just be the author saying something along the lines of, "You know, like, tip or edge, man...you know?" Meaning he using multiple words to describe the same thing. Or he could be making a distinctin (I believe this is the case). Technically speaking, the trajectory of the sword would be different if such a string were tied to the tip or edge.
Second, the fact that this is a sword-first tip entry cut (like the kind in the short video I linked above) is nothing but speculation. It can be any type of cut. We have absolutely zero idea what the author meant...there is just not enough information.
In other sources, I have found evidence that suggests more than one type of cut was used, but again, nothing concrete.
Posts: 545 Location: Boston
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 9:39 am
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Steven,
I'm working on a power generation/cutting class for Chivalric Weekend 2010, as well as an instructional video (for putting on Youtube) and putting together notes on this very subject. In short, there are hints, but nothing concrete. And what hints there are, are open to interpretation much to a greater extent than most other things in WMA.
|
Hmmm, I've been meaning to get to Chivalric Weekend. Now I'm even more interested.
Thanks,
Steven
Posts: 871 Location: Paris, France
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 9:46 am
| Steven H wrote: |
| Have you tried a tip first and then draw into a hanger cutting mechanic? My gut says this would also be effective at cutting clothes and flesh, but I have much less cutting experience (and I don't have my own sharp yet). |
I might be misunderstanding what you say, but cutting in two times like that, contact then draw, is only as efficient as the first impact is in my experience (which is far from being as extensive as Michael's). The drawing motion needs pressure to work well, and it's difficult to provide it by torque from the hands once the blade has stopped.
In order to achieve a good drawing motion during the cut the best way I've found is indeed to hit the target with the blade at an angle, i.e. the sword does not go into the target with the speed perpendicular to the edge. This can be done indeed by leading with the hilt. That way the speed of the blade itself before impact is converted into the drawing motion...
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 10:05 am
| Matt Clarke wrote: |
Cheers for the video Michael. Some nice cuts there.
It inspired me to do some test cutting of my own, and since I just got a new Albion, what better thing to do?
Alas, only water bottles though. :-(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJgPEnmnxk |
Matt,
I really like your video! I like the way you move around the target...you've combined something we do as a pell drill with cutting practice, which I think is a great idea.
Plastic bottles (along with fruits and vegetables) are one of the few things that be cut with percussive (sword first) strikes and are therefore a great medium for this kind of practice. Watermellons would be better, but also messier and much more expensive. :)
We have some interpretational differences, but nothing major. The Talhoffer is a great sword...it was my first Albion and still one of my favorites.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 01 Oct, 2009 10:15 am
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
| Steven H wrote: | | Have you tried a tip first and then draw into a hanger cutting mechanic? My gut says this would also be effective at cutting clothes and flesh, but I have much less cutting experience (and I don't have my own sharp yet). |
I might be misunderstanding what you say, but cutting in two times like that, contact then draw, is only as efficient as the first impact is in my experience (which is far from being as extensive as Michael's). The drawing motion needs pressure to work well, and it's difficult to provide it by torque from the hands once the blade has stopped.
In order to achieve a good drawing motion during the cut the best way I've found is indeed to hit the target with the blade at an angle, i.e. the sword does not go into the target with the speed perpendicular to the edge. This can be done indeed by leading with the hilt. That way the speed of the blade itself before impact is converted into the drawing motion... |
Sorry, Steven, I forgot to answer that question, but Vincent has done it for me. We see eye to eye on this. It's really a simple matter of blade dynamics...swords cut a certain way.
Vincent...I actually talk about the exact same thing (leading with hilt to facilitate drawing motion) in the video we're putting together, though so far all I have are rehearsal shots. It's very refreshing to see that there are others that see it the same way.
Posts: 545 Location: Boston
Fri 02 Oct, 2009 5:24 am
Michael and Vincent-
Thanks for answering. After this thread I'm really looking forward to the next opportunity I get to cut - so I can try stuff out.
Cheers,
Steven
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