[Taylor Ellis]

I've been looking into the different armour types of the 13th century, and am unsure of what to real go was as interpretations seem to vary so much.

For example, as far as I was previously aware, a knight wore a tunic, gambeson, maille, coat of plates and a tabard, in that order. However other interpretations I've read suggest tunic, maille, gambeson (often sleeveless), tabard. IMHO, the pictures in the Maciejowski bible seem to strongly suggest the latter. Yet the former seems to be commonly thought to be correct and would seem to offer greater protection to boot. However the latter would offer more manoueverability.

These guys don't look like they have gambesons under their maille to me, and King Saul looks like he's only wearing a tunic under his:


So, in your opinion, was the knight of the mid 15th century the tank most reenactors portray, or did he trade some vulnerability (particularly in the limbs) for less weight and freedom of movement and rely mostly on his shield for protection?

Or something else entirely?

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Taylor,

In the book the English medieval knight 1200-1300, the authors argue that the some padding was worn under the mail (gambeson or some sort of tunic). they use the Mac. Bible illustrations of infantry soldiers as evidence and the descriptions of contemporaries describing lances piercing through shield, mail and aketon. The authors also describe gambesons as we usually think of them (two layers of linen stuffed with wool or rags or hemp fabric).

I am under the impression that the armor of the 13c knights varied throughout the century. Starting with the simple gambeson-mail combination (and a tabard or cycla of some sort) and becoming more elaborate later to include coat of plates, gamboised cuisses, poleyns, limited plate protection of the extremities, etc.

Were they TANKS? That is a relative statement. Yes they were probably rather well protected from from being cut, but blunt trauma was probably a threat. Also the armor was probably not very effective against a charging lance point.

Cheers,

Alexi

[Kenneth Enroth]

Yes there are several places in the Maciejowski bible where people are being stripped or dressing themselves in armor. I have also noticed that the illustrations show a single garment that appears light compared to the gambesons many footsoldiers wear. I'd guess that it is a thick tunic made of wool or something comparable.

Notice Saul's forearms. It look like they may be laced on the inside to keep the undergarment from traveling up the arms and hindering movement.

I've checked around a little lately on this issue. Reenactors seem to think they had to have padded gambesons under the maille beacuse the maille is more effective at stopping arrows like that. As far as I'm aware knights were vulnerable to crossbow bolts. They are not supposed to just bounce off the maille. People usually counter and say that beacuse maille is proven to be more protective with padded undergarments they must have known that. Well it wouldn't be the only occurrence of less than optimal gear. Take the Maciejowski helm as an example. It's flat top should not be as good for deflecting sword cuts than the earlier conical helmet. Yet the Maciejowski helm is a later development and appears to be worn by the elite fighters in the bible.

I get theimpression that people who are interested mainly in weapons think that swords should chop up maille and helmets fairly easily and and people who are into the armour part seems to expect the armor to protect aganst everything. The truth is probably a balance. I don't think maille will generally stop a full power cut or stab from a sword, axe or spear. The first line of defense is the shield, and mobility. The real value of maille is probably to protect from all the lesser powered blows that would make nasty wounds if they connected with flesh. Full power blows may break bones even if it doesn't penetrate so the natural conclusion may be that the knights put a greater emphasis on skill and movement than on maximal protection. The battles fought in europe at this time was not on the scale either of the wars of the later middle ages with it's mercenaries, polearms, longbows and firearms.

[Steve Fabert]

There are two things to keep in mind in evaluating what was "normal" for knights of this period, and how effective the armor was.

First, recall there there was no compulsion toward uniformity. Harness was made for individuals, and the combatants were not supplied with uniform apparel like armies of the 19th and 20th Centuries. What may have been common for an English knight may have been considered all wrong in another country. What was ordinary for the nobles also may not have been very similar to what the men of lower rank wore.

The other is the obvious fact that plate armor was perceived as a substantial improvement over mail by the people who wore it - otherwise it would not have made mail obsolete in such a comparatively short period. Written accounts and art detail serious wounds suffered by knights wearing mail alone. Even if you assume that the wounds illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible are gross exaggerations, the risk of not just a bruise but a serious laceration was still present, if you were struck by the proper weapon (which may have been an axe or lance rather than a sword).

If the primary concern of a knight had been to avoid all risk of injury he would have stayed home. So whatever gear was worn would first have allowed enough freedom of movement to do the job of attacking others, and then would likely have provided only the protection that was consistent with the primary goal of acting offensively. That may have differed from knight to knight, and place to place. If you think you are going to remain on horseback and fight with a lance, you might dress a bit differently than you would if you expected to slug it out on foot.

[Taylor Ellis]

[Allan Senefelder]

Maille by itself will only stop the edges or points of a weapon . It has no blunt trauma absorbtion ability ( a sword with no edge can still be used to beat you to death with ) and when blows are recieved if there is naught but a thin shirt beneath
the rings can actually be driven into the flesh by the force of impact . Additionally maille or any armour has weight and mass that rests at certain points on the human body more than others ( the shoulders most notably with maille while
plate is somewhat better distributed around the body as the plate peices are strapped to the limbs they cover ) so a
gamboisone of some kind would act as the padded strapps on a backpack to help this weight sit comfortably all day .The
full coat of plates would develope twords the end of the 13th century from the armoured surcoat . This was a surcoat into
which small plates were sewn around the torso as expirementation really got underway to find better defenses to counter the increasing importance of infantry( and the increased use of polearms by them ) on the battlefield and the increasing
use of massed archery tactics with better arrows ( bodkin head ) . As Stven said there was no uniformity in terms of equipment and regional tastes had alot to do with what was being worn in a particular area ( the all amille clad knight was still the norm in Germany in the early to mid 14th century while for the most part the rest of western Europe was
plate armouring up as fast as they could get it and in Eastern Europe armour tended to be of lighter forms as horse archery was still commonly found ) .

Last regarding period illuminations and illustrations while they are great sources of information they were typically
done by folks who were not present for any of the events they illustrated so there's a reasonable chance they guessed
at the things they were'nt sure about so the door is always open for a little modern interpretation by us today .

Oh sorry this is last , about the tank thing a field harness of the mid 15th century weighed in at between 55 and 65 or so pounds . James who works with us got out of the Airborne a few years ago and his full set up ( body armour personal weapon extra ammo pack and his part of the AT rig he carried ) was just under 300 pounds . Weightwise put me in the
15th century harness any day of the week .

[Steve Fabert]

Allan:

Concerning coats of plate and similar vests of leather or cloth with metal components (like the ringmaille jack illustrated on the Mercenary's Tailor web page), are you aware of any examples in art or architecture that show this kind of coat worn underneath a mail hauberk, rather than over the top of one? I have not looked back through my own collection of books to be sure, but I don't recall seing any clearly illustrated example of reinforced textile garments overlaid by mail. The ones I recall were all shown as an outer garment. It would be interesting to know whether the inception of the use of reinforcing plates or rings might have influenced the sequence of the layers.

[Allan Senefelder]

Hey Steven . I've never seen illustrated period material regarding plate( curbroullie or metal ) reinforced garments worn
under maille . Most of the records for early plate reinforced garments are written and the prevailing speculation is
that the reinforced garment was over the maille . By the mid 14th century the waspwaisted form that was fashionable
( and can be seen in numerous funery effigies and loads of illustrations and alot of written evidence ) was obviously some form of plate wheather a reinforce garment or early breast plate . As you said there are no absolutes for equipment
during this period and armour works best in layers . It was not unsual to wear several maille shirts and padded garments
during the 14th century . James Johnson our fabric armour fella has just done an experimental quilted jack ( a very common form of cloth armour where layers of fabric are quilted creating a dense cut resistant defense ) of 6-9 layers of fabric and the cut resitant properties were obvious just handeling it ( destructive testing this week ) . I have read a few
refferences to some sort of ridgid ( curbroullie ? ) leather defense worn under the maille on the torso in late 12th and
13th century sources over the year but they were specific about the construct being leather .