[Jean Henri Chandler]

Caveat: I know there are other threads here on Celtic swords but I have a very specific question I don't find definitively answered in my searches. If this is covered already in an old thread though just post a link.

There is a debate going on right now on the Celt wikipedia article and the article on Iron Age swords about Polybius famous claim from the battle of Telamon that Celtic swords were of poor quality and had to be straightened out over and over.

There was apparently a book published by Radomir Pleiner in 1993 called The Celtic Sword, which claims that Polybius was essentially correct and "30% of Celtic swords were of poor quality" which is being used now in the article to support Polybius claims. I've read a lot about swords from this period but over the years I have read so many contradictory things about Celtic swords that I wanted to find out what the current academic consensus is, and if possible find some other more recent sources besides this one from 1993. I know a lot of work has been done since then.

I realize "Celtic" is a term not even used much in Academia today, what I would like to know is are there any published studies, articles or books comparing the quality of La Tene culture swords with contemporaneous Roman swords, and is there any evidence in the archeological record to validate or refute Polybius claim that Celtic swords bent easily? Are there any swords known in the record to have been bent in battle (as opposed to being 'killed' in sacrifices?)

Also any published literary evidence of the metalurgical quality of La Tene swords would be appreciated (or personal knoweldge of resident experts) I gather La Tene swords had more carbon content (i.e. 'steely' iron) and were in some cases made with pattern welding but rarely showed any signs of proper tempering, whereas the Roman swords were the opposite, though there were also some pattern welded Roman swords.

Is that correct?

J

[Jared Smith]

This is more of a theoretical reply than a researched one based on artifacts being measured for spring elasticity, but.... Based on average medieval period steel chemistry and lack of known precise measurement methods in heat treat, a 30 degree flex with no set would be very outstanding for something dating back to Celtic or even just Old Irish history period in my opinion. I would expect most of the originals to be closer to mild steel (tougher than iron, but still bends once sufficient force is applied.)

Historical swords of high medieval era have had some carbon content measured (feature article with input from Craig Johnson I think if I recall it right) http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_bladehardness.html . Generally carbon content did not average throughout a sword to be much above 0.4 to 0.5. That was actually the superior 12th and 13th century A.D. era grade of European export steel for tools and swords (most known sources were a few select German locations.)

The above kind of steel-carbon chemistry generally does not approach spring stiffness of modern spring steel and alloyed spring steel sword reproductions that most of us benchmark our expectations from. (Consider 4140 chrome molly as an optimal modern alloyed example with carbon content similar to medieval era swords. It is tough enough for aircraft landing gear use, but does not flex the way we expect swords to.) A railroad spike (0.3% to 0.6% if made after 1970) is a reasonable example of a comparable simple alloy closer to average of period swords. This kind of material has much more toughness than wrought iron (low in carbon), but relatively little "spring capability." Other members here have commented that a crusade era sword in the forum's Oakshott typology was recorded as able to flex 30 degrees without taking a set. (I assume this to be along its entire length, with tip versus hilt being used as the reference for final angle.) I can only theorize, but this probably had a chemically superior batch of raw ores and some combination of mastery/luck in heat treat during its making.

[Dan Howard]

In "Greece and Rome at War" (p. 115) Connolly reckons that he has personally seen a La Tene sword dredged from lake Lake Neuchatel "bent almost double and then flex back". This was a 2000 year old artefact, not a modern reconstruction.

Pleiner's work is the best book on this subject and his results should be no surprise, since the same thing is observed in every sword-making culture. Most swords are good functional tools, a few are exceptional, and the rest are poor quality. The specific percentages of each depend largely on the skill of the maker.

[Shane Allee]

You always have to take what the Greeks and the Romans wrote about the celts with a big spoonful of salt. Much like the naked barbarian image, if it happened once and they could used it make their population think less of them then that is what they would say.

Along with The Celtic Sword, Early Irish Ironworking is another good book on the subject. I know that both left me with the feeling that there is a lot about them we don't really know. It really seemed to come about from the bad swords studied. From what I remember there were a couple studied that were clearly bad, and they new it. These were blades which had I believe a higher manganese content, which doesn't harden well with normal heat treatment. It does however work-harden, which they did as a last result. They were mixing different iron and steel at this time, so if that was the best they could do then they probably would have been trying to use it and weld it onto blade edges. The better blades studied show potential that they could have been doing some kind of heat treating or case hardening, but there really isn't evidence to show for certain they were.

Moving away from the metallurgy, In the late La Tene we do see some things that factore in as well. I have been amazed at how ridge the double fullered blades can be prior to heat treatment. That was probably a big step which help let them make some of the bigger blades we start seeing and still keep them light and useable. There is also the 32-34" long blades that look like they are from a 15th longsword with a delicate point. Even more radical than those are the "Sword of Spheres" which have the narrow diamond smallsword like blade. They probably aren't going to be doing blade styles like these is they bent the first time someone used them.

As the La Tene progresses we see longer and longer blades. These get more complex in both form and composition with early forms of pattern welding, and it does go beyond just piled construction blades. After Rome takes over, the main centers of production don't go away. These kinds of things don't seem to point to the junk blades that some would want us to believe they had.

There is also the question of why we don't know. I don't know of any recent studies being done, and people seem less open to the idea of cutting and studying blades now then the originals were done. When it was done they got more questions then answers out of it. Part of that may have been with some of the practices of the time. They folded some of those suckers up pretty good to kill them, so they may have been putting the heat to them as part of this. We don't know, and probably will never have a totally clear picture of a heck of a lot of things about this period.

Shane

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[G Ezell]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I looked for Early Irish Ironworking but it's out of print and no used copies were available on Amazon. I'll check Ebay later.

What you say about using phosophorous and the correlation to work hardeing is interesting, I know this was also done by the Vendel period Norse who smelted their iron with bone and / or bird dung to get their phosphorous.

I'd just like to find some more solid evidence if there is any, I'll post here if I find anything interesting, I'm going to review some online journals.

J

[Shane Allee]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

"Iron and steel in ancient times" by Vagn Fabritius Buchwald (2005), contains analyses of 24 different continental iron age swords, including 1 hallstatt and the rest la tene swords. None of these swords have been quench hardened, eventhough several of the swords have sufficient high carbon. The phosphorous contents is generally low with some exeptions, but some of the high carbon ones have virtually no phosphorous. All except one suffering fire damage, show increase in hardness through workhardening (the fire damage example shows evidence of workhardening due to fragmentation of the slag inclusions). The hardness readings (5 given per blade), vary mostly in the 150-250HV range. So these swords definately would bend, supporting Polybius notions. I've yet to see any evidence of pre-Roman quench hardening in weapons and other sharp implements.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

That's pretty interesting. Back around 2001 or two I attended a lecture by Dr. Alan Williams at the Wallace collection, in which he described the swords he had analyzed as being carbon alloyed with phosphorus rather than carbon. It's nice to know that there was more to La Tene stuff than that. My own experience of medium carbon steels fit to make springs from is that if the metal is normalized, it should give it a fine pearlitic structure if done properly, which is actually quite 'springy', though not as optimally as a full heat treat.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

There is also a possibility that the geometry of the blades came into play. A longer, thinner blade will be more prone to bending than a short, thick one. I don't know enough about the cross-section profiles of Celtic swords and gladii to be sure, but I suspect that at equivalent metallurgical quality, it is easier to bend a Celtic sword than a Roman gladius. Perhaps this effect would be sufficient to explain Polybius' observation...

[M. Eversberg II]

Could it also be that the treating wasn't thorough, causing weak spots that were prone to bending? Would alloying with phosphorous allow it to be hardened only up to a degree where tempering isn't needed (thus preventing it from shattering)?

M.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Shane Allee]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]