Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Albion style grip Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Albion style grip         Reply with quote

Hi,
I saw a picture of a sword in another topic that had a grip just like the ones Albion does and it got me wondering. What historical examples are there of the classic string over leather albion grips. I'd love to see pictures anyone has!!!
Thanx
Z
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

String over leather? Albion Next Generation Grips are simply leather over wood. They wrap cording over the grip while its glue is drying. This not only binds the leather wrap to the wood but also creates the visual pattern of the wound cording and makes it appear that there is a cord underwrap. Many of their Museum Line swords have the cord underwrap, which is more expensive to do because they have to take care to wrap the cord around the grip core, cover the core with glue and leather, then wrap it again with the temporary cord to bind everything together.


 Attachment: 126.14 KB
cluny.jpg
Sword form the Cluny Museum

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 229

PostPosted: Fri 03 Jul, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,192

PostPosted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zach Gordon wrote:
Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s


Most (probably all) historical grips with that pattern actually have cord underneath the leather that creates the impression. Albion's NG grips are a shortcut. They use a cord overwrap to create the look of a cord underwrap.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Zach Gordon wrote:
Oh yeah, I know the string isn't left on... I just meant glued on leather grips with string impressions like the albion next gen.s


Most (probably all) historical grips with that pattern actually have cord underneath the leather that creates the impression. Albion's NG grips are a shortcut. They use a cord overwrap to create the look of a cord underwrap.


Chad, that is simply not true.
There are many examples of grips with only leather over wood that has cord impression. I have personally documented quite a few.
In those cases where you have embossed decoration it is also more or less standard to have the leather directly over the wood. Risers are built with cord or leather thongs regardless if cord is or is not used under the leather.
The method used at Albion is not intended to mimic something else. it is not a short cut. It is what it is, looking just like some well preserved originals made by this method.

With only cord under leather you get a more subtle effect: the cord is visible as slightly irregular ridges. Depending on the thickness of the leather you will see traces of the cord pattern, or just the ridges caused by the binding.

EDIT:
attached an example (pretty famous one) of cord impression in leather with no cord binding underneath.

Plus and example of a grip with cord binding over wood, under leather but no cord over-wrap. Note the subtle effect of the slight ridging of the cord showing through the leather.

And below, an example of a deocrated leather grip. You can see the seam split apart from the leather shrinking over the centuries, letting us have a view of the wood core (4 part construction) with leather thongs as risers. Note the lack of cord under wrap.

And finally two examples of grips that probably feature spiral wound cord (wrapped with a gap between the turns) and an over wrap used to compress the leather in the gap between the turns below. This is the same method used to create the effect on the Svante Nilsson Sture sword, that is implemented in exactly same way on the Albion version.



 Attachment: 28.96 KB
Knapp fr sidan.jpg


 Attachment: 55.5 KB
101-0171_IMG.jpg


 Attachment: 38.84 KB
Greppdekoration mitten.jpg


 Attachment: 61.14 KB
DSC02105.jpg


 Attachment: 53.31 KB
DSC02906_2.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,192

PostPosted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Chad, that is simply not true.
There are many examples of grips with only leather over wood that has cord impression. I have personally documented quite a few.
In those cases where you have embossed decoration it is also more or less standard to have the leather directly over the wood. Risers are built with cord or leather thongs regardless if cord is or is not used under the leather.
The method used at Albion is not intended to mimic something else. it is not a short cut. It is what it is, looking just like some well preserved originals made by this method.


Peter,
Thanks for the correction. These kind of details are not published very often and I was assuming (erroneously) that cord patterns on extant grips were created by cord underneath.

Is the first sword you posted the Brescia sword? The pommel certainly looks familiar. If it is, I guess I might ask why the Albion Museum Line version uses a cord underwrap when the original did not. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Sat 04 Jul, 2009 11:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, the first sword is the Brescia!

Chad, Im not sure the Museum Line version has cord underneath. If it does, it would be pretty funny after all I said in my previous post! Big Grin

It was so many years since we did the development work on that sword, and it went through many turns before reaching market. It was also one of the very first swords we did. I cannot now remember all things said in all those stages of development. If it indeed does have cord under the leather, I can only think we did that as an extra precaution against splitting of the core. Better to be extra, extra sure....

Over time, the issue of core splitting has proven to be a non issue. The wood and leather only is plenty strong. Adding cord under the leather of the Museum line swords is done since both the Solingen and the Svante has this feature, and quite probably the Tritonia as well (although that grip did not survive.
The Saint Maurice has not cord but linen cloth as can be seen on the original.
Adding cord under the leather of the Brescia is in any case not a short cut made to cheat customers out of something. Wink
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Julien M




Location: Austin TX
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,072

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wonderfully detailed grips pictures!

You've certainly made your point Peter.

I'm intrigued by grip wraps using both stitching and yet bear cord overwrap marks.

Also I especially like the shot of the tooled grip as those are obviously rare on the reproduction market (if there are at all, as I recall seeing such work by you and Bartha mainly).

Is this grip the one you used as an inspiration for that sword below? Would you by any chance have pictures of other tooled grip such as this one?

Cheers,

Julien M



 Attachment: 31.84 KB
pj32.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,192

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Yes, the first sword is the Brescia!

Chad, Im not sure the Museum Line version has cord underneath. If it does, it would be pretty funny after all I said in my previous post! Big Grin


From the description page on Albion's site:

Quote:
The wooden core of the grip is bound with cord for extra strength and covered with leather.


Happy Perhaps we're getting off-topic here, but while I can see the point in having the cord on the Brescia, it does stray from the original, despite the Museum Line's goal of being faithful down to the smallest details:

Quote:
Each museum piece is recreated in an exacting fashion, down to every last conceivable detail.


I guess it's all part of making the best (and safest) sword you can, but I wonder if the differences between the original and recreation need to be noted somewhere in the description so there isn't any confusion. For example, I assumed the original sword had a cord underwrap because the recreation did given the philosophy of the line.

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Adding cord under the leather of the Brescia is in any case not a short cut made to cheat customers out of something


I wasn't implying any cheating or deception. Happy I simply was implying the overwrap sans underwrap was a way to get the look of a cord underwrap without the time and expense of a cord underwrap. And, I've been proven to be mistaken. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christopher Gregg




Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 667

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

May I go slightly off-topic here and just say how rare and wonderful it is to have such a cordial, polite, and courteous discourse between our forum members, especially when we correct each other. This is probably the main feature of myArmoury that sets it apart from the other sword sites, and why I thoroughly enjoy learning about swords and weaponry from this site alone. Bravo! Happy Cool Wink
Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
View user's profile Send private message
Eric McHugh
Industry Professional



Location: Crown Point, IN
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 426

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Explanation         Reply with quote

I was part of the orginal development of the Brescia. It is one of my favorite sword, but the development of this sword was a nightmare. We did things over and over and over to get it right.

The grip was another area that was causing problems. The original leather we were using would not give the strong, bold lines that the orignal had, so to fix this we used an underwrap in spite of the research showing it without the underwrap. We felt is was more important to have the look of the original than to follow the exact procedure used on the original since no one would really see the difference under the grip.

Since that time, Albion found a supplier of leather that provided the look that we wanted without the underwrap. But, the procedure for making the Albion Brescia was now public, so we did not want to change it since it was an established step in the making of the sword.

So that is the basic reasoning for the difference. The photos of the making of the Brescia clearly show an underwrap, so it is not being hide. The important thing is that the grip on the Albion Brescia is a reasonable recreation of the the look, feel, and shape of the original. Happy
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing that insight, Eric. Frankly, I think you guys made the right choice. I love everything about the way the Brescia looks and consider it one of the finest looking replica swords on the market today. I'd love to own one some day.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 649

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric McHugh wrote:

The grip was another area that was causing problems. The original leather we were using would not give the strong, bold lines that the orignal had, so to fix this we used an underwrap in spite of the research showing it without the underwrap. We felt is was more important to have the look of the original than to follow the exact procedure used on the original since no one would really see the difference under the grip.


I just finished reading this topic. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6526

I believe that something so small, it does not matter to many people.
I think that there is nothing to worry about, your sword is historical, however.

Regards
Maurizio
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Albion style grip
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum