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Sean Flynt
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 Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: Help Me With a Type XIV Project |
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Beyond this site's feature article on the subject, reviews and related threads, I'm pretty ignorant about Oakeshott Type XIV. It's far out of my main area of interest (1450-1650) but I have an interesting project opportunity on the horizon (I can't help it--it's a sickness). So...
Educate me. What should they feel like? What are your favorite examples (photos, medieval artwork, effigies, etc.)?
I'm especially interested in ideas for grip and cross.
I'm game to do something other than the ubiquitous Albion-style grip with cord-bound leather and multiple risers. That grip type is beautiful and my personal favorite, but emulation is crowding out other historic types. Simpler styles? More elaborate? Different materials? What would you want to see? I might fall back on Old Faithful, but I'm wiling to experiment.
As for the cross--faceted? tapered? both?
I'll post interesting finds from Northern European artwork.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sean,
That's not surprising. Type XIVs seem to have been more popular in England and France than in Germany. There are examples from France and Italy, and a German examples or two, but this type appears more frequently in artwork in England and France than in Germany or Austria from what I've read.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Sean Flynt
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Felix R.
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, I have a few pictures of the Paris swords hilt.
Maybe those help a little.
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Sean Flynt
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Sean,
I am at work right now and do not have access to any of the pics on my home computer. A Type XIV that has caught my eye is the one on the seal of Edward I. It has an atypical non-wheel pommel and guard. I wish I had pictures available now to show you. I am unsure if I have any at home on my computer either for that matter. I have seen an example in one or two books including Osprey's Warrior series book English Knight 1200-1300.
Scott
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Sean Flynt
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I am currently doing a bit of research into Type XIVs myself for an article.
You have probably already seen what appear to be Type XIVs in the Maciejowski Bible, because the feature article points to them. This is pretty early for a Type XIV to be around and could probably be argued against, but I'll drop an image in anyway:
The below effigy of Sir Robert de Compton which was identified by Mr. Oakeshott to have Type XIV pommel, grip, and cross - though the blade is missing. This is circa 1320AD and in Hawton All Saints, Notinghamshire, England:
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JE Sarge wrote: | You have probably already seen what appear to be Type XIVs in the Maciejowski Bible, because the feature article points to them. This is pretty early for a Type XIV to be around and could probably be argued against, but I'll drop an image in anyway:
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It's only 20 years or so early. The Maciejowski Bible dates from c. 1250 and Type XIVs were most popular from c. 1270 on.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sean,
I was able to scan the picture from my recently purchased copy of "The World Encyclopedia of Swords and Sabres." Some nice pictures and I could not beat the price, $5.99 on closeout at Borders. 
Scott
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Josh MacNeil
Location: Massachusetts, USA Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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The cross and pommel on that are very unusual. I like them a lot. IMO, they kind of give a Viking-esque look to it. Good find, Scott. I may use that as influence for some future projects I have in mind.
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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I really like the look of it as well Josh. Definitely an out of the ordinary look. It is one of many ideas I would like to see in steel and in my possession at some point in time. I never really payed attention to it having a Viking look to it before though. Good catch there yourself Josh.
Scott
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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If you wanted a XIV to play with MRL had their in the discontinue bin yesterday for $122 (half off).Not sure if its still being run at that kind of discount but I figure at that price, with your ability tweak, it would be had to go wrong.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | If you wanted a XIV to play with MRL had their in the discontinue bin yesterday for $122 (half off).Not sure if its still being run at that kind of discount but I figure at that price, with your ability tweak, it would be had to go wrong. |
Thanks, folks! You're on top of the game, Joe. I just PM'ed you about your Windlass "Type IV" because I bit hard on that $122 daily special hook on Monday!  (hat tip to Nathan Robinson)
My POB is about 1.25" farther down the blade than the POB listed for your review sword, and I can't figure out how that could be. On other projects I've fussed and fretted over how to budge the POB even .25", and I'm not sure how Windlass could keep the same overall dimensions and proportions for this sword but shift the POB that much. Maybe you'll be able to confirm that yours really is at 2.25". If it is, I would guess that your blade simply has more distal taper. Mine feels very good, mind. In fact, its POB is closer to the 4" of the Albion Yeoman.
I got this blade because I've admired these short medieval swords for many years (especially Albion's Sovreign) but felt that they were too far out of my interest range. The price on this one, good recommendations and potential for upgrade won me over and I'm very pleased with the piece. The thing is, there isn't much to do, project wise! It's tightly assembled. The grip core is firm and of a section corresponding to the Musee de L'Armee sword shown above, though slightly oversized. I'll probably work with the existing grip core, which I haven't done in many years.
So, what's to do? The ends of the cross should be cut at right angles. The grip needs slight refining and a new wrap. Satin finish for the steel. That would do it, but I'd also like to add a peen block. The flush peen is perfectly reasonable and historical, but I think a block adds refinement and contributes to the aesthetic harmony of most swords. So, I need to find at least .25" somewhere. I could take that from the grip and still be within spec for Type XIV swords. I could also just move cross, grip and pommel down, taking a bit of the blade's shoulders. The latter option would lighten the sword slightly and pull the POB back a bit (not much, but probably enough to notice). The latter option is more advanced work, but the very simple former option would make a bigger difference in the looks of the sword. So, this piece would be a great first project for folks testing the waters of sword cutlery. It's good off-the-shelf but easily transformed into something better.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott Kowalski wrote: |
Scott |
This is awesome. I'd like to see a replica of it made some day...
On the other hand, on my Windlass Type (X)IV, I regripped with a leather over cord oxblood wrap, adding risers. I also inset the pommel with a pair of Arabic coins, added a greyish antique patina, and cut some finials into the cross. You are planning some more extensive modifications, so it will be interesting to see how you work though these!
I like the idea of adding a peen block. I've considered just MIG welding one onto a sword in my father's shop and finishing it to look like a real peen block, without the hassle of taking down the blade at the shoulders and actually doing a real one. I would be very interested in seeing how you do this if you do decide for certian on it. 
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | My POB is about 1.25" farther down the blade than the POB listed for your review sword, and I can't figure out how that could be. On other projects I've fussed and fretted over how to budge the POB even .25", and I'm not sure how Windlass could keep the same overall dimensions and proportions for this sword but shift the POB that much. Maybe you'll be able to confirm that yours really is at 2.25". If it is, I would guess that your blade simply has more distal taper. Mine feels very good, mind. In fact, its POB is closer to the 4" of the Albion Yeoman. |
Sean, the PoB on my Windlass XIV is also about 4", like yours, but such variations are not outside the possible with Windlass. I have seen the PoB vary as much as 2" on the same model. Not only does the distal taper vary, but even the overall thickness (and thus weight / stiffness) of the blade. If you ever watch their promotional video on how they make their swords its not hard to see how this variation can happen. I tend to avoid the thinner, more flexible ones when I buy them off the rack at Reliks, even if those ones are more lively in the hand (personal preference). Perhaps with Windlass reviews one should really examine half a dozen swords and report means and standard deviations!
I'm not as ambitious or talented as you guys, but some day I plan to set a couple of round pieces of amber in my XIV pommel.
-JD
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Ruel A. Macaraeg
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jun, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Jon, apologies -- don't know how I missed your last email, or why my one to you earlier didn't take. Just wanted to let
you know that your sword below arrived as scheduled, though I only actually retrieved it this past Saturday. You did a great job with it, and I'm sure I'll see it through some good service.
| JE Sarge wrote: |
This is awesome. I'd like to see a replica of it made some day...
On the other hand, on my Windlass Type (X)IV, I regripped with a leather over cord oxblood wrap, adding risers. I also inset the pommel with a pair of Arabic coins, added a greyish antique patina, and cut some finials into the cross. You are planning some more extensive modifications, so it will be interesting to see how you work though these!
I like the idea of adding a peen block. I've considered just MIG welding one onto a sword in my father's shop and finishing it to look like a real peen block, without the hassle of taking down the blade at the shoulders and actually doing a real one. I would be very interested in seeing how you do this if you do decide for certian on it. |
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jun, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I was handling the Windlass XIV this weekend and couldn't help myself--I had to see what was under the surprisingly well-don grip. Normally, a Windlass grip comes off without any trouble--usually just sliding off over the tang after removal of the pommel. In this case the tang was peened and I bet that the pommel would slide down, exposing the peen, if I simply broke off the grip. Easier said than done. I laid the grip on my anvil, pressed chisel against it and popped it with a mallet. The chisel sunk halfway through the grip but remained firmly in place. Same treatment on the other side of the grip, with similar effect. In fact, it took multiple blows and serious prying to break off the grip. It was attached with a few large spots of a brittle dark epoxy. Not only that, the grip was of relatively complex and historically plausible section, and well-fitted to the tang.
The cross and pommel also were epoxied, but a couple of hard blows with a rubber mallet had them rattling as per usual. The pommel dropped down the tang roughly .25", where it actually fit tighter and was less prone to turn. This exposed a very robust non-threaded tang end and very thin peen. In this state, the grip is within length spec as described by Oakeshott (a bit over 3.5") and still comfortable in my hand. So, most likely I'll just use a slighly smaller grip as opposed to moving down all the furniture.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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This is a standard topic
