[Jared Smith]

There has been interest in which horse breeds that are currently available make good representations of medieval war horses. I thought I would make it a separate topic from discussion of historical horses.

[JE Sarge]

My personal favorites are the Percheron and Belgian breeds. Though not as nimble as other breeds, they have a great temperment.

[Justin H. Núñez]

If you've got the $ why not go for a Spanish-Norman? Actually They are not that expensive. I had a rope horse that a lot more than some of those.

[Brian Downing]

If I were doing a heavy cavalry re-enactment, and I could afford one, the Friesian would be my first choice. A good compromise is the quarterhorse/draft cross. For more lightly armored cavalry, I would go with the quarterhorse, an appendix quarterhorse or one of the European arabian lines (they tend to be a little easier to handle and have a thicker build). I eventually bought two quarterhorse/ paint horses as a good compromise, since I wanted an agile horse that is easy to handle that I could practice mounted archery with.

[Gordon Frye]

Someone in an earlier post on the other thread had a good point, in that there were different horses for different uses. Within the structure of a compagnie d'ordonnance of the 15th-16th Centuries, an homme d'armes was required to have some five horses: three were suitable for the Charge, one was his standard riding horse, and the fifth was for his servant to ride. And it was the expense of these warhorses which made heavy cavalry so hideously expensive.

One of the quotes I recall from my readings on the French Wars of Religion was the statement that a good warhorse cost some 50 golden "Double Louis". These I believe were two ounces of gold, which at present market prices would be worth between $1500 and $2000 each, for a total price of $7500.00 to $10000.00 per warhorse. That's about the same price as a high-level sport horse costs today. I would posit that things haven't changed all that much in regards to such, other than the fact that such prices would be WAY out of the reach of a poor farmer, husbandman or soldier! But if you consider that an homme d'armes was required to own THREE such horses (not that in a campaign he would manage it, but he had to at least begin the campaign with three serviceable warhorses), along with two lesser horses, full armour and camp equipments, and of course servants to keep it all in good shape, things got expensive fast.

Lesser, but still considered "heavy" cavalry such as cheveaux légèr (or Demi-Lancers), Pistoleers and the like could get by with much less expensive but still powerful horses. Harquebusiers or mounted crossbowmen even less expensive horses, and the various forms of hobilar and mounted infantry only required that the horse put one foot in front of the other for a period of time to be useful. If you get into such light cavalry types as Jinetes and Stradiots, then you start talking about light, fast horses of the Barb and Arab style, meant for long scouts and very active campaigning.

The suggestion above concerning a Spanish-Norman would to me seem to be pretty close to the ideal for a top-of-the-line War Horse for Heavy Cavalry, in the form of a Stallion of course. Large and durable, yet with a certain quickness and the aggressiveness of the stallion that would be necessary for attacking other horses and men. Another fine breed would be the pure Andalusian. Perhaps somewhat smaller, but still heavy and quite active, and descended from the line that carried Spanish and Austrian men-at-arms into battle for centuries. And as noted above, the Friesian would also be a fine choice. Of course in the day they chose based upon "type" rather than breed, but since that's what we do these days, there it is.

Note: my own "War Horse" which I use for Jousting etc. is a Belgian/Percheron/Quarterhorse mix (16.2hh), which get's you just about the same horse as a Spanish-Norman. Calm and fairly deliberate, but somewhat more spirited than a pure draft horse (sometimes... ). My best "Cavalry Horse" though is my little Appendix Quarter Horse (15.2hh). Much more agile, he would be far better in the melee and certainly on a scout. But for a charger when I'm in full armour, the big boy is the one. As a friend who plays Polo said: "He'd be hard to get ON the ball, but once you got him there, they'd never get you off of it!"

Cheers!

Gordon

[Stanley Watts]

The trouble with the Friesian is, that whilst the breed looks very gothic and oh so right, as a breed it is oh so wrong. The breed the Fritzland, is a relatively new breed and was developed as a funeral horse. The problem was in the C19th the breed, through various reasons went through a real decline. Such a decline that by the 1930's it was down to a handful of covering stallions. The breed was effectively extinct. In Holland, a group of farmers decided to save the breed from the brink. There was not enough of a gene pool left in the breed so they introduced Oldenburg (west fritzland), stallions into the line to eek out the gene pool. Now, whilst they try hard to suppress it you now get Bay horses popping up. The Oldenburg is a much more powerful horse and was the chosen military horse of the German Cavalry in the C19th and C20th. However, in all ways it would be regarded as a modern warm blood in look and behaviour.

If I had to choose myself a modern horse to be my heavy medieval war horse, there is few that can match the Percheron. This is the horse taken down by the Vandals into Spain. Indeed the name of Andalusia started off as Vandalusia and this heavy horse was introduced into the much lighter local stock to make the Andalusian a la brida. This can be seen in how both breeds develop in such a similar manner though the foal stage. So as I said the Horse of Perch would be my choice.

[Gary Teuscher]

[Stanley Watts]

I take your point ion accuracy iff we are talking about the Percheron of the modern show ring. Indeed I believe that this breed holds the world record for the heaviest horse. However, I have purchased a good few of these from breeders to use as medieval war horses. When I say I have purchased a good few of these, I am not talking about this behemoth loved by the modern breeders but the horses that they feel have not made the grade. This means they are sold much cheaper as almost a waste product. What I have bought from them has been free moving lighter (for the breed than expected), horses around 16:1-2 hhs. Unlike other heavy horses available, the Percheron is a very free moving horse that is not 'into the ground' but 'over the ground'. A real mover. As far as the need for strength coupled with a turn of speed, surely this is the need for both war and the Lists. The need for a horse to turn on a sixpence yet carry a fully comparisoned knight is a difficult thing to juggle. With regard to weight, I know this is a moot point. But, if we take Harry the 8ths tilting armour we can work out the man inside. If we weigh the suit, then stick ontop King Harry's weight, then add his saddle, harness, and weaponary we come to a weight of 200 kg x 2.25/lb = 450 lbs!! If we take the equation of Gen Smith and Col Gen Rosenberg of load to horse weight we come to an enormous horse weight of 1 metric tonnes = 1000 kg = 2250 lbs for the horse!! However, this equation was written up for the campaign cavalry mount of the late C19th. If we back off on the weight by say 200 kg (450 lbs) we still end up with a horse of some size to carry the weight required of him at speed. If we look to a modern thorobred as an extreme of a hot blood who is tall but skinny, we are talking of an animal of around 500 kg. So it does not take much imagination to add another 225kg to this animal to see what we would have. A horse around 16 hhs of middle to heavy weight who is nimble yet able to take shock into itself on impact. It maybe of interest that I have done the calculation to work out the impact on the point of a coronel on the end of a lance, based on 2 horses running at each other at a list. It worke out at 26,000lbs/ft2/ftsec. on an area the size of an old silver dollar!! This would be like being hit by a 20 mm cannon shell, or balancing a 16 wheeler truck balancing on its nose resting on your chest. No wonder we are talking about 6 to 8 girths plus pectoral plate plus crupper etc to spread the load. The turning motion through the saddle would be huge. Not the sort of impact you would want to hand out to a light horse with no bone. Poor thing would end up knocked into the circle seats

It may again be of interest, but about 5 years ago I moved forward with a breeder of Andalusians to try and breed a renaissance war horse taking the blood of an andalusian stallion to the bone of a percheron mare. However, like a lot of such ideas it never got beyond finding the horses. Such is life.

I do love debates like this. So much fun.

[Ben Potter]

If I had the choice I'd go with:

Light war horse: andalusian (from my years shoeing horses they are some of my favorites, really calm and inteligent) there are some that come from some island (sorry can't remember which one) that are amazing.

Halflingers are another good choice but a little on the light side.


heavy war horse (draft type): clyds-shire,

Fjords are just plain awsome (and pirod athentic all the way back to viking times, and (no one will know unless you tell them) they also look like mongol horses.

[Rod Walker]

We use a variety of breeds and sizes.

In the black is our 14.3hh Arabian and in the stripes is our 14.3hh Percheron x Stock horse.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/Capta...horses.jpg

Dancer, our Arabian again.

[Rod Walker]

Crusader, my 16.1hh PRE.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/Captayne/cru4.jpg
Again.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/Captayne/cru2.jpg

and Martel, our 15.2hh Thoroughbred.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/Captayne/t7.jpg

[Gary Teuscher]

Stanley Watts wroter:

[Patrick Kelly]

[Rod Walker]

I am 120kgs fully armoured up for the joust in my Gothic Harness. The 14.3hh Arabian in my pics carries me all day without a problem in joust after joust.

[Jared Smith]

A lot of this comes down to how stout the horse's build is, and how strong its legs are. Height of the horse is not really my idea of the correct way of looking at it. Many riders weighing much more than 200 lbs do ride a fairly short (13 hands) but stout team penning style (quarter horse cross bred) very hard for 15 to 20 minutes in American rodeo style competition. (It is not that different from early medieval era people in mail riding a Barb cross breed.)

The current saying of 25% of horse's weight (recommended limit of rider and gear) is usually in the context of several hours of trail riding, with "average" to cool temperatures. If the temperatures are really hot (over 100 F), I have had "pay for ride" trail ride outfitters refuse to let me ride (while my wife and kids went on) because I weigh over 200 lbs. In cooler weather, they don't bring the issue up.

[Gary Teuscher]

[M. Eversberg II]

[Stanley Watts]

Gary,

I am with you all the way on this weight thing. As you say both Rosenberg and Smith both advocated a 20% ratio. Like Nolan they were only interested in what the horse could carry in the field. Smith said, a horse carrying more than this could not survive a campaign. The was born out in the Boar War with massive losses attributed in part to this. However, horses did successfully carry more than this. We must also take onboard we are not (normally), carrying out an ardous campaign - mind you that is just what my group does . So I am with you all the way on a load to weight ratio of 25-30%. As for going over this, may I draw an analogie that you can lift a truck on a car jack - for a little while - but if you stand there long enough you can watch it buckle.

It is a side interest that the weight maximums of the British Horse Society at their riding schools fit well into the above equations.

[Stanley Watts]

Jared,

You are correct on weight/height. The obvious is a good shetland is more than capabale to carry a shetland farmer. He may not be tall (the horse that is), but is built like a brick sh-- house

Years ago I did a thing for NARES which was a chart to work out a horses weight. It not only covered the girth measure but also size of horse.

Here it is below:

If you reproduce it in A4 format (sorry we use European paper size here), you should find it works.

It keeps saying it is too big (story of my life). If anyone knows how to get it to fit in I am happy to email it to you so you can stick it up.

[Stanley Watts]

Me on my tbxcd. I hope being in C17th kit is not a downer lol.