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Veronica W.





Joined: 05 Jan 2007

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: exploding charge         Reply with quote

Hello everyone! I'm a weapons-happy author whom you've so graciously helped in the past. I have a new, and somewhat random question for you...

What might cause a seventeenth-century black powder weapon to explode before firing, thus burning the handler?

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

Best,

Veronica
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,241

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: exploding charge         Reply with quote

Veronica W. wrote:
Hello everyone! I'm a weapons-happy author whom you've so graciously helped in the past. I have a new, and somewhat random question for you...

What might cause a seventeenth-century black powder weapon to explode before firing, thus burning the handler?

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

Best,

Veronica


Writing another novel, or still working on the same one?

There are a couple of reasons for premature ignition in a black powder firearm or cannon.

1. Static electricity. This is not likely but on a very dry day, with the right combination of friction, fabric and other factors, a spark might be generated in the area of the powder charge causing premature ignition. On a stormy day, when the air is charged with electrical energy, this is a real possibility. However, this is the least likely cause for such an occurrence.

2. A bit of burning patch material, or what might be referred to as a glowing ember - powder residue - in the chamber of a firearm. In this case pouring a new charge into the barrel might cause ignition of that charge, creating a "train" of burning powder which will move up the bore of the gun and exit the barrel, probably burning the hand of the shooter who is holding the powder measure from whence it was poured. It is for this reason that black powder shooters avoid loading their guns directly from the horn or flask. If this occurred with the main powder container poised over the muzzle of the gun, the shooter will be holding something akin to a grenade! Not a pretty picture.

There can be other causes, like holding burning match too close to a powder charge. By match I am referring to the material used in matchlock guns as an ignition source, not the wooden or paper safety match. Any ignition source, if not handled carefully around a supply of black powder can cause a problem.

In large bore guns, i.e. cannons, which fire very coarse powder, swabbing out the bore with a wet sponge mounted on the end of a rammer is common practice. Also, one of the artillerymen will hold his gloved thumb over the touch hole of the cannon in an effort to prevent the flow of air through the touch hole during the loading process. If there are any sparks remaining from the previous charge, the air pushed into the chamber of the gun ahead of the powder bag or the ball will cause air to flow, possibly fanning any embers left in the gun, and setting off the powder charge prematurely.

In 40 + years of firing all kinds of muzzle loaders I have never had a premature ignition, even though I seldom wipe the bore between shots. However, during a Rev. War reenactment a few years ago, I did see a charge poured from paper cartridge go off prematurely, fortunately with no injuries. It was a very hot day and after firing a dozen or so rounds of blank ammunition, a musket barrel can get very hot. Apparently it was a combination of factors which caused that incident.

I hope this helps.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Hunter B.




Location: Away from Home
Joined: 26 Aug 2008

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: exploding charge         Reply with quote

Lin covered all the bases. Nothing says fun like Murphy and explosives!
“It is the loose ends with which men hang themselves.”
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Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do have to disagree with one detail. Static Electricity won't set off a black powder charge and if you don't believe me then here is a some pics from some people who tried to and failed to set off black powder with electricity http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experimen...parks.html
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Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quick question: Do you mean the charge ignited while loading or the gun exploded while trying to fire the gun? If the gun explodes during firing then powder burns would be the least of the shooter's issue. That might be caused by a really fowled barrel and a double (or more) charge being loaded in the gun.
Well a double charge could be one of two things. Deliberately or accidentally putting twice (or more) powder in the barrel. Another form of double charge would be loading powder and charge in the gun then forgetting about it (or thinking it was fired) then loading a second charge on top of the first. That's not a good situation. metallurgical problems could help the gun go boom in a bad way.

Having an unexpected charge in black powder weapons can happen. Have heard of wall hanger, family heirloom BP rifles that had an unexpected charge in them. Some one may take the old rifle out to see if the action still works and what not and have the gun unexpectedly go off.
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel Minturn wrote:
I do have to disagree with one detail. Static Electricity won't set off a black powder charge and if you don't believe me then here is a some pics from some people who tried to and failed to set off black powder with electricity http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experimen...parks.html
\

Joe...

This actually happened in Pennsylvania several years ago. PA has, or had at one time, a flintlock only hunting season. A hunter who was wearing some nylon covered hunting clothing generated enough static electricty to set off the priming charge in his rifle, causing it to fire. So, it has happened. Also, powder mills have been known to blow up for no apparent reason other than a theoretical build up of static electricity. I say apparent, because there are very strict rules regarding having ignition sources near the production of black powder and it was reasoned that the explosion must have been the result of static electricity. OF course that could be wrong.

Please note that I said this is rare, but it can happen. I appreciate what the gentlemen tried to do with their experiment, but I don't think they produced every conceivable scenario that could have caused this.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, black powder can be interesting--it can go off when you REALLY don't want it to, but sometimes it's impossible to MAKE it go off! Or as I like to sum up 17th century warfare: "Here, strap this pound of explosives to your chest and hold this piece of rope that's burning at both ends!"

I "blew myself up" at Jamestown, once, with my matchlock. Had a misfire, looked down and realized the match was hitting behind the pan, not going into the priming charge. No biggy, I moved the match and, as I commonly did with flint chips after misfires with my flintlock, casually flicked the ash from the match off the back of the pan. FOOM! There was a spark still in the ash, and it set off the priming charge, which neatly fired the gun. I blinked, discovered that I could still see (in spite of my shriveled eyelashes acting as Velcro!), counted my fingers, found no real burns, and carried on more carefully.

A couple years before that was a close call. I had filled my bandoleer of chargers, then went over to the campfire to light my match. Bent over, and in surreal slow motion saw my chargers all swing gracefully towards the flames. "OOOOHHHHHH SSSSHHHHHIIIIII----------....." Didn't blow up. Backed up fast. Got someone else to light my match!

There are supposed to be stories from the 17th century of bandoleers going off like a string of firecrackers, but I'm a little dubious. Each charge is contained in its own wood or metal bottle, and even if one goes off the rest should be pretty safe. But in an 18th century cartridge pouch the paper cartridges are all under one flap, and photos of myself firing my musket show just how many little sparks and flames go arcing out from the pan, apparently eagerly seeking any powder in the region. Scary to see! Even if the powder I am pouring down the barrel cooks off from a spark in the bore, I'd rather be holding a wooden charger than a paper cartridge.

Now, if you bring a large powder flask or horn into the equation, it can get bad!

A friend of mine once saw 6 inches of muzzle blow off of an original 18th century musket when firing. You just never know where a flaw might be. He also reports that a comrade had a small gap between pan and barrel, and powder was sifting down into the lock. After a while, that powder went off with the priming charge, and blew the lock off the musket! Ouch. Third-hand stories, obviously, but if you survive long enough in this hobby...

I also saw a fellow at Jamestown set his padded coat armor on fire, simply by inadvertantly letting his lit match hang against it. Granted, that was a batch of match that burned like fuse in a Bugs Bunny cartoon, but it just shows that the match or sparks from it can reach things you don't expect. If that includes powder, boom. Heck, your character could get blown up and not even know what caused it!

Happy shooting!

Matthew
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Veronica W.





Joined: 05 Jan 2007

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, everyone, for the great replies!!! You've given me a ton to chew on. Matthew, the stories of your close calls are really something else! And Lin, your responses, as always, are incredibly detailed and helpful!! Loved reading all of it. Now I have to decide just what should come to pass with my 17th-century pirate. Arrrr.... Wink

Lin, to answer your question, this is a new book I'm working on, a novella actually. The last one hit the shelves earlier this month! (called Warrior of the Highlands, wherein our weapons-expert heroine is transported back in time where she meets and falls in love with Alasdair MacColla...and starring some of the weapons I asked about, oh, probably over a year ago now! I thanked you fabulous myArmoury.com guys in one of my earlier Acknowledgments, btw.) Cool

Thank you again, and slainte mhath!

Best,

Veronica Wolff
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 6 books

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Veronica W. wrote:

Lin, to answer your question, this is a new book I'm working on, a novella actually. The last one hit the shelves earlier this month! (called Warrior of the Highlands, wherein our weapons-expert heroine is transported back in time where she meets and falls in love with Alasdair MacColla...and starring some of the weapons I asked about, oh, probably over a year ago now! I thanked you fabulous myArmoury.com guys in one of my earlier Acknowledgments, btw.) Cool

Thank you again, and slainte mhath!

Best,

Veronica Wolff


I shall look for your book at the local book store. Alasdair is one of my favorite characters in Scottish history but I do have to wonder how loveable he was, given the descriptions of some of this actions. He once saved a distant relative of mine, Ranald MacKinnon, who was besieged by three pikemen. Ranald, who was wounded, was trying to draw his sword, which was stuck in the sheath, and fend off the pikemen with his target. Alasdair arrived and lopped off the heads of the pikemen, saving Ranald, although I like to think he would have eventually gotten himself out of the jam.

Thanks for the comments. If I can be of further assistance let me know. I have written a book on Scottiish firearms of the 17th and 18th centuries which you might find helpful in your research. Send me a PM if you are interested.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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