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Gary Teuscher
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 Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Draw lengths of different ypes of Bows |
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I think we have a pretty good idea for draw lengths of the English Longbow.
But how about other bows from the middle ages? Any ideas as to bow length and draw lengths?
Arrow lengths would help a lot here also. I guess my question is were draw lengths for composite and other ealry bows proportionately the same as with longbows? I'm thinking composite bows had a longer draw length than their bow length suggested, but this is purely a guess.
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M. Oroszlany
Location: Czech Republic / Slovakia / Hungary Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: |
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The Hungarian recurved bow has a draw length of about 80cm (~32"). Calculate in a reasonable amount of diversity though, my experience is limited.
Take a look around here to see an assortment of replica nomad bows. This seems to support my estimate.
http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_b.htm
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thaks, M. Oroszlany!
Looks like some pretty good stuff. Are these replicas accurate as far as you know?
Interesting as it seems a shorter composite has the same draw length as a longbow, give or take a few inches.
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M. Oroszlany
Location: Czech Republic / Slovakia / Hungary Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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If I recall correctly his Extra III series is made in the traditional way, the other ones are made with fiberglass (there is a 5-600 EUR price difference). Detailed info here: /* link removed */ (it seems I'm unable to link to the correct page, it's there on his site, the 'bows' button from the home page should take you there)
There are several bowmakers that make these bows in Hungary, some even starting from 150EUR upwards,I linked to this particular one because the others didn't have info on draw length. The one I learned to shoot was a 65lbs variant of this: http://felszerelesek.lovasijaszat.hu/felszere...amp;lang=2
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Alexander Wu
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Most bowyer's can customize the draw length for you.
Horsebows should be drawn to the cheek or further, the ear is best. Assuming you are taller then 5' 6'' that's about 30 inches. There's also a very basic difference in draw style. European bows used 3 fingers while horsebows required a thumb ring. I personally feel there's a bit more grip to the thumb ring, and doing a longer draw on a high poundage bow won't dig into your fingers painfully. I shoot a traditional english longbow at 60 lbs; i find it really hard to do a full mongolian draw to my ear while utilizing the correct back muscles. There's a pretty basic range to draw length because of people's heights. People who are 6' 2'' or taller only still have about 30 inch draw lengths, a trained archer can draw to 30 inches.
I think, longer arrows allow more stability in flight. But arrow trajectory and accuracy is dependent on arrow weight and bow poundage. You can't shoot an arrow too light or too heavy, I'm sure a physicist could tell you the same. f=ma
Asian bows used bamboo arrows, while Europeans had cedar or ash. Bamboo is a little lighter so their arrows would be longer. Cedar is a bit heavier so the arrows can be shorter but achieve the same weight.
Fiberglass bows are much more lenient. You can under draw and it overdraw a little it without risk of breaking or sacrificing accuracy.
Asian bows are generally shorter, not only because they had to shoot off horses but material differences. I am sure the steppe and highlands were not very well equipped with tall yew and lemonwood trees.
pi r squared...no...pi r round, cornbread r squared.
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M. Oroszlany
Location: Czech Republic / Slovakia / Hungary Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | European bows used 3 fingers while horsebows required a thumb ring. I personally feel there's a bit more grip to the thumb ring, and doing a longer draw on a high poundage bow won't dig into your fingers painfully. |
Yes, most eastern horse archer cultures utilised the thumb ring, however none of the finds are attributed to the hungarians around the time they came into the Carpath-basin that I'm aware of. It's speculated that they might have learned the western over-the-bow approach from previous contact with the European nations. Today the over-the-bow approach is used almost exclusively by reenactors and horse archers (the sportsman kind).
| Quote: | | I shoot a traditional english longbow at 60 lbs; i find it really hard to do a full mongolian draw to my ear while utilizing the correct back muscles. |
Take no offense, but you are probably doing it all wrong. When shooting the recurved composite bow, you should not be drawing the string towards yourself, but rather pushing the bow away, utilizing bone support in your bow hand. If you shoot standing on the ground, you start in a position where your bow hand rests freely and straight beside your body, arrow placed on string and holding the string with your string hand. Then you start to raise both hands simultaniously upwards, the string hand in a straight line to your ear. You keep your bow hand straight and raise the bow in front of you, effectively pushing it away from the string.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmssshQkvzo - not a perfect example, but could help in getting an idea.
Shooting from a horse should work similarly, but there might be some catches to it that I'm not aware of.
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Alexander Wu
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the pointers M. Oroszlany. Your suggestions sound very logical and helpful. With horsebows, I usually try a more kyudo style draw. A push from above and anchoring to my ear, but...I just can't seem to get my draw length anywhere near my ear just my cheeck.
pi r squared...no...pi r round, cornbread r squared.
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Asian bows used bamboo arrows, while Europeans had cedar or ash. Bamboo is a little lighter so their arrows would be longer. Cedar is a bit heavier so the arrows can be shorter but achieve the same weight.
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I am not aware of cedar arrow being used in Europe. Ash certainly, but analysis has also shown arrows to be made of almost any wood which can be coppiced. Hazzle, for instance, or willow. Drawlenght would dertermine arrowlength, not the weight of the arrow itself.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Draw lengths of different ypes of Bows |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | I'm thinking composite bows had a longer draw length than their bow length suggested, but this is purely a guess. |
Only if you think "short bow = short draw length."
That aside, maybe one of the biggest contributors to the long draw lengths of Asian composite bows is the pair of static-recurve ears--they greatly delay the onset of stacking and make the bows far more pleasant to draw at longer draw lengths. Earlier Scythian and Near Eastern composite bows without this feature had shorter draw lengths.
| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | Looks like some pretty good stuff. Are these replicas accurate as far as you know? |
As far as I know the replicas of later bows are generally more accurate than those of earlier ones--and if you ask nicely, Grozer will be the first to admit it. Don't be afraid to communicate a lot with him when you're thinking of ordering a bow from him--or just looking for information. (He'd be the first to tell you that, too.)
| Alexander Wu wrote: | | Horsebows should be drawn to the cheek or further, the ear is best. |
Um...that's for an Eastern European or Middle Eastern draw. Chinese and Mongolian archers draw to the nipple (which isn't necessarily further than a draw to the ear) while Japanese archers draw beyond the ear altogether.
| Quote: | | Asian bows used bamboo arrows, |
That'd be an overly broad generalization; there are many, many kinds of Asian arrows made from many, many different kinds of wood.
| Quote: | | Asian bows are generally shorter, not only because they had to shoot off horses but material differences. I am sure the steppe and highlands were not very well equipped with tall yew and lemonwood trees. |
"Generally," maybe, but not always; aside from the Japanese and their very long bows, Manchu horse archers also used bows that were fairly long by any standards.
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This is a standard topic