myArmoury.com - 'viking age' and medieval fullers. forged or ground?

Posts: 235 Location: North Alabama

Fri 19 Dec, 2008 8:55 am

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:

More great info. Several of you have referred to a tools called a scraper. Can you give me more info on this? What do they look like and how do they function? How would you use one to cut in a fuller?

Thanks,
Dustin

Vince Evans posted some images of the scrapers he uses at http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19853709
I'm not sure if the design of the tool is historical or not, but I can say they do work quite well.

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Fri 19 Dec, 2008 9:02 am

Jeroen, it is a matter of interpretation, naturally.
But I do not think it is radical that a sword should occasionally have to be taken to a stone wheel for re-sharpening. A honing stone will mostly wear on the very edge. It cannot effect the overall geometry of the edge so much. Sometimes honing has gone so far that it has become harmful for the edge geometry. Then a new edge needs to be established. Grinding on a wheel does not have to be a resort only for those cases when there has been nicks in the edge. Just normal wear will result in severe dulling after a while.

I do not think that re-sharpening on a wheel is less probable than that the artist did not know what he was drawing. Rather the opposite perhaps.
We have finds of files and honing stones, but not scrapers or polishing tools that looks like the tools depicted.
Perhaps it is significant that later medeival pictures showing polishers of armour use a tool with a curved ”edge” and handles, almost like some kind of draw knife. They aso stand over a low bench, much like the one in the Psalter image. Normally they have a small jug of some lubricant and a bag of emery powder handy at their side.
This polishing tool might have been a polished strip of metal, or it may have been a stip of leather fastened to a wooden profile. Perhaps the Psalter shows an early version of the same kind of tool?

Below is an image from the Luttrell psalter, 13th C. Three men are grinding a knife. There is some kind of structure above or on one side of the stone wheel. It might be something similar as was shown on the 8th C Psalter?
That early image is an illustration of the heavenly host preparing for battle, is it not? In that context it might be more reasonable to think they are seeing to weapons in their armoury rather than making new ones?
Just some thoughts. Perhaps a bit too much off topic…

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

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Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Sat 20 Dec, 2008 3:37 pm

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Jeroen, it is a matter of interpretation, naturally.
But I do not think it is radical that a sword should occasionally have to be taken to a stone wheel for re-sharpening. A honing stone will mostly wear on the very edge. It cannot effect the overall geometry of the edge so much. Sometimes honing has gone so far that it has become harmful for the edge geometry. Then a new edge needs to be established.

Yeah, but when will the edge get any wear in life? It's not like a knife that gets used all the time, unless they did cutting practices with it or something. Otherwise, the only time a sword will ever cut is in the occasion that it will be used against an opponent on the battlefield. And only then when the primary weapon is dropped, and the owner is still alive. Otherwise I would expect that a sword would not see any edge wear from the moment it was made until the first time it goes onto the battlefield. And then it would at most only take a minor honing to make sure the edge is as sharp as it can be (to compensate from possible drawing the sword from the scabbard and putting it back during inspections, or just to admire the blade).

I've attached the images I mentioned, though the file says that it's from the Canterbury Psalter of 1150, not of the Utrecht Psalter as I thought (I seem to recall having seen the images, or very similar ones described as from the Utrecht Psalter though).

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A period illustration of grinding from the Canterbury Psalter circa 1150.jpg

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Sun 21 Dec, 2008 1:51 am

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

Yeah, but when will the edge get any wear in life? It's not like a knife that gets used all the time, unless they did cutting practices with it or something. Otherwise, the only time a sword will ever cut is in the occasion that it will be used against an opponent on the battlefield. And only then when the primary weapon is dropped, and the owner is still alive. Otherwise I would expect that a sword would not see any edge wear from the moment it was made until the first time it goes onto the battlefield. And then it would at most only take a minor honing to make sure the edge is as sharp as it can be (to compensate from possible drawing the sword from the scabbard and putting it back during inspections, or just to admire the blade).

I've attached the images I mentioned, though the file says that it's from the Canterbury Psalter of 1150, not of the Utrecht Psalter as I thought (I seem to recall having seen the images, or very similar ones described as from the Utrecht Psalter though).

Looking at surviving blades in decent condition, it is not unusual to find marks of re-sharpening, that goes beyond mere honing. Undulations from nicks being ground away is pretty common. Sometimes a small bevel has been ground in on the other wise smooth lenticular section: a witness of grinding rather than honing.
When and why they got so dull that they needed this kind of regrinding is a matter of speculation. Some kind of use, be it test cutting, battle, duel or scirmish, abuse (may historical owners also had the urge to cut branches and weed just for the fun of it? ;) ) or perhaps even bad cases of corrosion. Who can tell?
There are remarks in text (sorry no quotes) on old rusty swords being refurbished when battle is imminent. To me it has always seemed like a pretty natural thing that swords needed to have their edges seen to from time to time for many reasons.
Bayonettes has seen many uses apart from their function as weapons. I do not think swords were regularly (ab)used to the same level and frequency, but I am not sure swords as a rule were kept religiously in their scabbards at all times except in times of serious war and imminent battle.
But, yes, I agree with you that the tools of a craftsman naturally need more frequent regrinding. A sword is not worn and used with the same frequency as a knife or an axe.

Thanks for posting those Psalter images! Refreshing to the memory. I have been looking for them but could not find the place I´ve hid them.

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Daniel Prendergast

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Posts: 3 Location: London

Wed 04 Feb, 2009 4:55 am

Peter Johnsson wrote:

This is an example I have posted several times on this forum when questions regarding forging and grinding has come...

... The pattern in the fullers are cut away almost down to the middle of the twisted bars, but there is not distortion from cutting/chiseling the bars in two to open up the pattern...

Blades were forged pretty close to shape, but as this blade from Fullerö shows, they were not shy leaving a forged edge thickness of around 2-3 mm or so (at a guess). The rest of the shape was ground and filed to shape before and after heat treat. The Fullerö sword also clearly shows that surface finish was very good. Well defined and probably with a pretty high polish. They were as skilled in grinding as they were in forging.

Peter- While everything in your above post (of which I quote only the parts relevant to my point, my apologies if this is not orthodox procedure!) is absolutely true and possible, I would point out an instance wherein the pictured sword could have a forged fuller; If the sword in has a central core, i.e. two pattern welded slabs either side of a central slab, with the steel welded round the edge of the resulting billet, then the resulting pattern welded elements might be so thin that the cleaning up process might be grinding enough to reveal this pattern. Having said that, I've no idea of the thickness of the sword or the depth of the fullers, but I can report from personal experience occasions when the desired herringbone pattern has given way to a swirly inner pattern after only very cursory filing, because the pattern welding has been forged too thin.
-Concerning the greater question of forging or grinding the fuller; one need only to observe the sword found at Vehmaa, Finland pictured in Ian Peirce's book to observe an example where the smith has rather schizophrenically gone back and forth between the two (although the sword in question, now that I think about it, may be hexagonal in XS, but whatever, you get my point).
-Dan

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Bruno Giordan

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Posts: 919

Thu 13 Aug, 2009 8:44 am

G Ezell wrote:

Some were forged:
http://1501bc.com/page/rijks_museum_oudheden/0214216.JPG
http://1501bc.com/page/rijks_museum_oudheden/0214217.JPG
http://1501bc.com/page/rijks_museum_oudheden/0214212.JPG
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Some originals I have examined/seen are clearly exhibiting forged fullers, with distinct irregularities.

In Brescia normally they were ground by special masters, as per the catastico (Venetian inventory) of 1609.

A master grinder would receive one gazetta (currency unit) for grinding a rough blade clean, with no fuller: if he had to gring a fuller (incanalatura per traverso) his pay would be raised to twelve or thirteen gazette apiece.

From which one derives that the work of grinding a filler (multiple narrow fullers in this period) would be long and the artifact would cost much more than an unfullered blade.

In the fourteenth century in Brescia a blade would cost thirty soldi (currency unit) while the daily pay for an infantry soldier was one soldo.
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Bruno Giordan

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Posts: 919

Thu 13 Aug, 2009 10:00 am

this video shows a famous Solingen bladesmith shaping blades at the power hammer, stamping a fuller into the saber with the same die into which a negative image of the fuller is carved.

http://www.schwertbruecken.de/deutsch/test_video1.htm

I do not think this method could work for blades with an accentuated distal taper. Or not?

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

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Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Thu 13 Aug, 2009 1:15 pm

Bruno Giordan wrote:

this video shows a famous Solingen bladesmith shaping blades at the power hammer, stamping a fuller into the saber with the same die into which a negative image of the fuller is carved.

http://www.schwertbruecken.de/deutsch/test_video1.htm

Great video, thanks for posting!

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