[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hello Michael,

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Eric Bergman]

I think that there are a lot of issues with this thread which history/archaeology hasn't given us some good answers yet. I believe there is a thread on swordforum.com in which Matt Galas translated a norwegian manuscript about a father telling his young knightly son on how to be armoured. If we look at effigies as a historical example, does it really show what was worn under the mail coat and leggings? And, if mail was the only armour at the time, we would then have to examine other reasons such as use of shields, mounted warfare, the formation, etc. How did that influence armour?

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hello again Dan,

I thought this was a newer thread - I have indeed seen that closed thread on SFI before. Thanks for linking it here.

The part that stood out to me as incomplete in its reasoning relates to sword geometries. Just because the technology existed to form acutely pointed swords doesn't necessarily mean they would have been made to overcome mail. A mail armed man can be beaten soundly into submission with a broad blade, even without compromising the armour. Once the mail exists only in those places where later plate doesn't cover however, that advantage goes away. All that's left is to thrust into the gaps and that won't be effective at all without an acute point.

That naturally gets much more complicated when we factor in the tendency of knights not wanting to kill their equals or betters, the rising numbers of infantry on the field wearing mixed, partial, and complete harnesses, etc.

Yes, my bad on archery. That's clearly not the arbiter here, save perhaps for at the closest of ranges, which is not how combat archery was generally leveraged anyway.

However, while we might not be viewing an arms race pitting offensive v. defensive weapons, we may have a defensive one - those with the better gear tend to survive with fewer injuries.

I do think that, even with archery aside, the increasing prevalance of better equipped infantry is driving some of these, purely because of 'natural selection'. Those with more advanced defense - and plate *is* a far more advanced defense than mail - survive the horrors of the halberd or godendac better than those wearing more flexible defenses. And as far as who survives best when pitted against another knightly opponent, the guy with the plate might survive the pollaxe encounter, while the guy in mail gets pulverized beneath his armour.

@Eric: Yes, there's much we don't know. The earlier reference to Richard I wearing some addtional torso defense may be evidence of mail having been shored up much earlier than is generally imagined. It certainly doesn't take much thought to realize that it'd be good to have a 'trauma plate' to supplement the mail over the vitals, and our ancestors were no less intelligent than we are.

All the best,

Christian

[Randall Moffett]

Jeroen,

I do not think you are quite following what I am saying. Like I said its likely worth reading those sections. You are comparing modern smith to medieval ones who do what a great number of differences in production which is always dangerous to do. If you want the info read the book.

RPM

(Edit) Here is a quick online source but still Williams voume is by far more informative. http://www.answers.com/topic/bloomery-1

[Dan Howard]

[Josh Brown]

[quote="Christian Henry Tobler"]
Certainly, as you say, some Conquistadors wore lighter defenses (jacks, brigandines, etc.), while others wore breastplates. The decision might've been personal or related to which was more affordable, depending on one's station. There *might* also be issues of transport. One doesn't generally ride around in plate armour on campaign - it needs to be transported. On the flip side, brigandines were often worn for riding.
quote]

The Conquistadors were, in some ways, a fairly unique case; at a time when the Spanish Tercios of Europe were very well equipped in armoured pike and shotte, typically with light horse for support, the expeditions who went to the Americas found themselves in a very different situation. Faced by numerous but lightly armed opponents (the bows used by the Aztecs, Tainos et al were much lighter than the European warbows and metal was not available for points or edged weapons), as well as faced with rough and often swampy terrain which would hamper the effectiveness of armored pike blocks, they had to adapt to a different style of warfare. Some of the "lighter defenses" in question were quilted cotton coats based on those worn by some natives - they were enough to stop a split-cane arrow, but lightweight enough to travel in comfortably. Somewhat the reverse of the arms race in Renaissance Europe - lighter gear was needed in order to better match a lightly armed but highly mobile opponent.

Further extremes of such 'when in Rome' fashions occured on some far reaching expeditions - thre are reports of troops returning dressed in deerskins in native fashion, their original doublets and breeches having deteriorated past repair in the field... I can't recall the same being said for Rome's Legions!

[Matthew Amt]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Dan,

I think that leaves us largely in accord then.

Great discussion all around!

All the best,

Christian

[Justin King]

There are obviously a number of factors that contributed to the development of plate. One's areas and regions of interest and the sources one has read may lead to different perspectives and ideas about the environment in which this took place, so I was wondering if anyone cares to point to historical examples, either of armor itself or of military events or trends, or other anecdotes that may have influenced its development, or have helped to shape our understanding of it.

I have some which I would like to throw out, starting with the campaigns of Edward Balliol/Edward III in Scotland following the death of Robert the Bruce, which I think show some important changes in the way armies were structured and also in the way they fought, which helped create military "climate" which lead to the transition. Unfortunately I am out of time for the moment so I will return to this later but I thought I'd get the ball rolling if anyone wants to give some examples. If anyone feels this belongs in a new thread I have no objections.

[Lafayette C Curtis]