Walloon sword for coments -- myArmoury.com

Fernando Viana · Posted: Mon 03 Nov, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Walloon sword for coments

Hello, would somebody help?
This piece is on its way to my little collection.
Said to be German, dated around 1700.
Blade length 91, 5 cms
Width 38 mm
There are some numbers and letters marked on the pommel - LCR N118 - said to be regimental markings.
I would like to know your opinnion on this sword, namely on its age, country of origin and, if possible, an idea of the markings provenance.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

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Roger Hooper · Posted: Tue 04 Nov, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject:

That is a handsome sword. I've looked at a few 17th sword photos and this is the first time that I've seen writing on the pommel. I can't see it, but is there a maker's mark (or any other mark) on the blade? I wonder if sometime in it's history somebody decided to blunt the sword tip.

Some would disagree, but I don't consider this a Walloon sword. In my tighter definition, I say Walloon swords were made around 1650 in Solingen for Amsterdam town guard and other Dutch entities, and about 30 years later France ordered them from Solingen (through Amsterdam) as their first standard army issue sword. They have a pear-shaped pommel with a knucklebow screwed to it, but no side branches. The counterguard is heart shaped with a star and smaller circle perforation pattern. The picture below shows a typical Walloon sword.

In my opinion, better names for your sword might be:
1 - German Military sword
2 - Haudegen (Hewing or Shearing sword)
3 - Felddegen (field, or battlefield sword)

For more pictures and a discussion of these swords see this thread - http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795

Morgan Butler · Posted: Tue 04 Nov, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject:

Perhaps if it had big germanic quillons, as I have seen on, some, I might call it something like a "late 17th to early 18th german military cut and thrust", There are few of these available where I live. But I think your sword qualifies as a German "walloon pattern" sword. And a damn nice one as well. Congrats!

Fernando Viana · Posted: Tue 04 Nov, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject:

Thank you so much for your input Roger,
Eventualy i have already had an overview to the link you now appoint, where i noticed your 'tighter' definition of Walloon sword, together with the Felddegen and Haudegen aproaches.
OTHH, i have also observed that the guard of the Walloon example depicted by Nathan Robinson on his Spotlight article 'The Schiavona and its Influences', has side and diagonal branches.
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html
I see that you note that the markings on the pommel of my example are unusual. This is a point i consider to be vital for its identification; i hope someone pops up with its decoding.
Concerning marks on the blade, i haven't yet received the sword; the pictures i posted are those from the seller's website. But i don't think there are any; soon i will check.
About the blunt tip, i must also check it when i have in hand, but i have already read the most varied opinnions on how this type of tip appears in this type and period of swords.
Thank you very much for your info and congrats, Morgan,
Concerning the answers i have seeked for my questions, i will adjust my sword's age to late 17th to early 18th century, its provenance being Germany, and will acomodate its typology to a 'digestive' Walloon pattern ... if Roger doesn't mind Wink

Fernando

Roger Hooper · Posted: Wed 05 Nov, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:

Fernando Viana · Posted: Wed 05 Nov, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject:

Hi Roger,
As i was about to read your post, the courier rang the bell to deliver the sword.
Two important details i now observed:
First is the inscription on the pommel; there is one more (tiny) digit in the legend, which confirms this is definitely a regimental numeration. The correct inscription is: LCR Nº 118, not punched but hand engraved (chiseled) in a crude manner. Oh, i wish i could have this marking decoded. If it were english, one could imagine the initials of Light Cavalry Regiment, but both in German and in Dutch one or another letter doesn't coincide ... at least in the translating machine.
The second is, as i guessed since i saw the first site pictures, a faded inscription engraved on the hilt side bar, most certainly the name of the sword user. After a zillion trials, i managed to get a close up picture where we can discern such detail.
Back into the Walloon typology, i fully understand your demanding interpretation of this sword pattern, but i have been noticing that many a people includes the multi bar hilted styles into the same family; and some of them have enough knowledge to figure out which is which, given the doubt that they call such variations Walloons just to make it easy.
I have spotted a Spanish article called 'Espadas y sables en la Guerra de Sucesión, 1702-1714' included in the page 'CATALOGACION DE ARMAS' by JUAN L. CALVÓ, where both plain and multi bar patterns are labeled as Walloon guard swords.
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/35-GuerraSucesion.pdf
As for considering the knuckle guard and side branches being screwed to the pommel, a system too early for the date of this sword, i would ask you on what date you actualy situate this sword ... or did you already mentioned that and i am missing it ? I have just had a look to a Portuguese book and it seems as the transition of methods took place between end XVII and beg. XVIII century, is that correct ?
Your coments will be welcome.
... And thanks for finding this a beautyful sword; that makes me proud, coming from you.
Fernando

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Martijn Bakkes · Posted: Wed 05 Nov, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject:

Roger Hooper · Posted: Thu 06 Nov, 2008 7:04 am Post subject:

Fernando -

Actually, I don't think one can firmly date one of these sword types by the type of branch to pommel connection. Screws tend to be a 17th century phenomenon, and direct insertion a little later, but the two techniques show up on swords with the same date.

If you can get a copy, I recommend George C. Neumann's, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution. It shows black and white photos and specifications of hundreds of swords, dating from around 1640 to 1800 - hangers, cuttoes, sabers, other cavalry swords, cutlasses,and smallswords. There are photos of about 20 German Military swords scattered through the book. I saw one, dated at 1700-1740 very similar to yours. There is a photo of another that has the knucklebow directly inserted and another branch screwed into the pommel, so what can I say? Eek!

Fernando Viana · Posted: Thu 06 Nov, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:

Thank you Roger.
A while ago i have tried to acquire Neumann's book, but i ended up receiving the 'wrong' work, called Collector's IIlustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution ( one gets exhausted when speaking out this title).
I am now buying the 'right' one, for a nice price.
Speaking of age in connection with knucklebow fixation to the pommel, i have this Portuguese 'regional' cup hilted sword, with the insertion method, which was dated by some connoisseur as from thje period of King Dom João V (crowned 1707).
Fernando

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Fernando Viana · Posted: Thu 06 Nov, 2008 10:10 am Post subject:

Martijn Bakkes · Posted: Thu 06 Nov, 2008 11:43 am Post subject:

"Licht(e) Cavalerie Regiment" would be it in normal speech... Military it might be "Regiment Lichte Cavalerie".
I couldn't find either as an acronym though, they seem to be more specified usually... Dragoons, Hussars, lancers etc.
With that in mind the C could be for Cossack, which would make it possible to be German as well, as cavalry would be spelled with a k in german.

Fernando Viana · Posted: Fri 07 Nov, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject:

Thanks a lot Martijn,
I will follow that track.
Fernando

Fernando Viana · Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject:

I still struggle to decode the (possible) regimental marks in my example ... Prussian ?

BTW, Indeed the habit of including multi bar hilted specimens in the Walloon typology was rather generalized. I was paging through my 'ancient' encyclopedia and found this drawing, defining the various types of swords.
Just look at example 8).

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