"Side swords"? -- myArmoury.com

Bennison N · Posted: Thu 18 Sep, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: "Side swords"?

Hey guys.

I want to know everything you know about the type of sword known as a "side sword".

I know they are Renaissance Era, with a good cutting edge, and a good thrusting point. I also know what they look like.

But that's all I know, really...

Can anyone offer any information about these weapons, please?

Thanking you in advance.

Steven Reich · Posted: Thu 18 Sep, 2008 4:53 am Post subject:

The term "sidesword" is a relatively modern one--certainly it wasn't used in the 1500s (at least, it isn't used in any of the 1500s treatises). It usually refers to a complex-hilted sword with a blade somewhat shorter and stouter than the ideal "rapier" form. Here are a few A&A swords that I would consider in this group (for the benefit of readers unfamiliar with this term):

http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier111.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier162.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier121.html

The systems usually associated with these types of weapons are generally Italian systems with surviving treatises written in the 1500s: the Bolognese material (Manciolino, Marozzo, et al.), Altoni, Di Grassi, etc.Meyer's "rappier" could also be considered a "sidesword".

Steve

William Goodwin · Posted: Thu 18 Sep, 2008 4:57 am Post subject:

Edwart Oakeshott's book - "European Weapons and Armour from the Reniassance to the Industrial Age" has a small section concerning this type.

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_dw_ss.html

this review has a little info....

also Nathan Robinson has 2 very nice side-swords in his "Collection" page from Phoenix Metal Creations.

cheers,

Bill

Bennison N · Posted: Thu 18 Sep, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:

Thanks guys.

Yeah, I saw those ones on Nathan's page, so I asked him about the "side sword" type first.

It was on his suggestion that this thread was started, actually, because we both felt we had something we could learn about them.

I was particularly interested to see the list of systems with surviving treatises that use the weapon. I'll definitely be shopping for copies of those. Thanks, Steven.

Steven Reich · Posted: Thu 18 Sep, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately, most of the treatises are in Italian. However, a few are available in English translation:

1. Meyer is available in modern translation: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Combat-German-Marti...amp;sr=8-1
2. Dall'Agocchie (Bolognese treatise from 1572) is available for free as a pdf in English thanks to Jherek Swanger. This is a very good translation: http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/jherek/ENGDALLAG.pdf
3. Books I-III of Manciolino (Bolognese, 1531), also translated by Jherek: http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/jherek/EngManc.pdf
4. Book III of Viggiani (Bolognese, 1575), again by Jherek: http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/jherek/Schermo.pdf
5. Finally, there is a 1594 English translation of Di Grassi's 1570 work. Note that this is somewhat inaccurate in parts (I've found a few errors from the Italian).

Your best bet is always to read a treatise in the original language, but this isn't always possible.

Additionally, we (the Order of the Seven Hearts) have a page on our site dedicated to Bolognese Swordsmanship.

Bolognese Swordsmanship is my focus, so I'm always happy to talk about it. Additionally, there are other 1500s sources in Italian (Altoni, Lovino, Agrippa & Ghisliero, to name a few) which would fit this classification.

Steve

Daniel Staberg · Posted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 3:18 am Post subject:

"Side sword" might be a translation of the German term "Seitenwehr" (better translated as 'sidearm') a word that was used to describe those types of swords in military texts such as regulations, recruitment contracts and various military manuals. The original term is actually fairly generic and can refere to most swords used as military sidearms in the period

Steven Reich · Posted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 6:30 am Post subject:

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Fri 19 Sep, 2008 10:42 am Post subject:

Seems to me that any sword of medium and convenient size that would be worn daily for selfdefence as well usually of a finer kind in the way someone today might wear a Rolex to show off some wealth. ( Oh, a gaudy cheap version only looking expensive might also be worn ? ).

In other words more for a type of usage that an actual type and might include some early transitional types of rapiers with the more cut and thrust capable blade ? At least that's my theory. Wink