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M. Eversberg II wrote:
From what I've picked up here, medieval era swords where made by smiths (probably a minority of all smiths actually made them), then sold as blades to cutlers, who actually hilted them. Was this not true in Nordic lands, if we know?

As for the less wealthy man "making ends meet" by blade making, how can he afford to buy raw iron to make them? Is bog iron a very common resource?

M.


Yes bog iron is a very common resource, at least here in middle Sweden.

That iron was a precious and rare metal during 800+ is another myth. Producing usable iron from bog iron is not very complicated. We have lots of finds pointing to an extensive production of iron. The quality of the iron, however, is not the best. Hence we have many imported high status blades in scandinavia.

Below you have four of the Swedish "landskapslagar". You were required to own the following:

-----------------------------------Bow -------Spear --------Sword ---------Axe -------Shield
Hälsingelagen-----------------X------------------------------X -----or-------X------------X
Södermannalagen------------X-------------X---------------X ----------------------------X
Östgötalagen---------------------------------------------------X-----------------------------X
Söderköpingsrätten-------------------------------------------X----------------------------X

Thomas,
we do not have one thousand swords of a period of 500-600 years, we have many thousands of swords during a period of 200 years.

/Ville
M. Eversberg II wrote:
From what I've picked up here, medieval era swords where made by smiths (probably a minority of all smiths actually made them), then sold as blades to cutlers, who actually hilted them. Was this not true in Nordic lands, if we know?

As for the less wealthy man "making ends meet" by blade making, how can he afford to buy raw iron to make them? Is bog iron a very common resource?

M.


Iron smelting reqires firewood, ferrous bog earth, and a bit of knowhow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery
In Norway, this was typically done on in the higher hillsides. Poor mountain farms would suplement their income by iron smelting. A dark age/medevial farm would need about 1 kg of iron a year (for nails and such). Yet a single smeliting area is estimated to have produced some 10 000 Kg of raw iron each year.
So, iron was readily avilable for trade.
They even found evidence of bog iron smelting at Ainse en Meadows. IIRC they also found some bog iron there which had been buried to leech out impurities in the soil, which is a known technique.

The proliferation of better quality iron became much more widespread after the millenium as more efficient water and wind mills became widely disseminated.

The Norse, particularly the Swedes, had a major trade route from central asia across Russia, from which they could (and did) aquire good quality iron and even crucible steel. They also of course traded with the Franks, the Spanish Moors, and the Byzantines among others. The Vikings were at least as good at trading as at raiding and invasions.

Iron armor was the norm until quite late, but that doesn't make it ineffective. In some respects tempered steel armor isn't as good, it's harder but not necessarily as resiliant. IIRC conquistadors in the New World found that iron mail was more effective against arrows than tempered steel mail due to being less brittle.

And getting back to the analysis of swords, again, only the smallest samples have been really examined, and really no effort has been made to make the tiny number of samples they do test representative of some kind of average or of most common types... the parameters for something like that have never even been identified.

So it's kind of like some future archeologist examining a Yugo and a 2CV and deciding that European cars of the 20th century were flimsy, slow and poorly made...




Speaking of The Knight and the Blast Furnace, does anyone know if there is anywhere you can find a copy of this book for less than $350? I've been wanting to read it for a long time but I haven't won the lottery yet.

J
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
...

Speaking of The Knight and the Blast Furnace, does anyone know if there is anywhere you can find a copy of this book for less than $350? I've been wanting to read it for a long time but I haven't won the lottery yet.

J


Library? :D
Blaz Berlec wrote:
I attended the lecture by Alan Williams here in Ljubljana, Slovenia yesterday, topic was "Metalurgical Analysis of Antique and Medieval weapons".



Fascinating stuff Blaz... I too am going to have to pick up that book. I think the low quality of many extant ancient items coming as a shock to us modern types has more to do with our perceptions then anything. In some ways in the effort to dispel the whole "European swords were crap" mythos we have gone to far the other way and made them something more then they were...
Well, in the discussion after the lecture Dr. Alan Williams said that in high and late middle ages swords with low carbon content or low hardness were usually very plain and simple, and almost all decorated or better made items were harder and "more useful".

So I would say it was not such "hit or miss" affair, but I suppose good material costed more, and maybe information about how to make steel was not really widely known (or the process was too complicated for local smiths) - so good blades were made only in large centres.

But on the other hand, most of the knives and shears from "Knives and Scabbards" Museum of London book show very good steel forge-welded edges, and heat treated properly. And those knives aren't very fancy items, just ordinary utility knives. But some are made just from simple wrought iron with very low carbon content and without any heat treatment (not that it would make any difference).

I really need to get hold of "The Knight and the Blast Furnace"...
In order to get an experts opinion, I sent an e-mail to a professor of this time period at the university of Oslo asking him about swords. I got an automated reply that he wont be back until monday the 15th. Hopefully he can provide us with some useful insights.
I know this is off-topic (sorry).

Many swords have been found in Scandinavia, however the only Viking helmet I know about is the one excavated at Gjermundbu (there may be more). Does this mean that helmets were scarce among Vikings?
Antonio Lamadrid wrote:
I know this is off-topic (sorry).

Many swords have been found in Scandinavia, however the only Viking helmet I know about is the one excavated at Gjermundbu (there may be more). Does this mean that helmets were scarce among Vikings?


Gjermundbu (the farm) had two burrial mounds, which yielded the only helmet and the two mail coats found in Norway. This sugests that at this spesific place they burried people with armour, while everywhere else they did not.
In my mind the most plausable theory is that one for religious and traditional reasons didn't burry people with armour. (You don't need armour when you are an Einherjar)
This is a subject I have wondered long about. It's interesting that armour was buried in the Vendel period, but so little found in the Viking Age. If they weren't buried, where would they all go? You'd think some would have survived.

Elling Polden wrote:
Antonio Lamadrid wrote:
I know this is off-topic (sorry).

Many swords have been found in Scandinavia, however the only Viking helmet I know about is the one excavated at Gjermundbu (there may be more). Does this mean that helmets were scarce among Vikings?


Gjermundbu (the farm) had two burrial mounds, which yielded the only helmet and the two mail coats found in Norway. This sugests that at this spesific place they burried people with armour, while everywhere else they did not.
In my mind the most plausable theory is that one for religious and traditional reasons didn't burry people with armour. (You don't need armour when you are an Einherjar)
It was used until it rusted appart?
Remeber that pointed helmets and mail where in use all the way from the migration period to the 13th century and beoynd.
The helmets and armour conserved form the middle ages are stuff that was stashed away for a rainy day or kept as decorations.
I've talked to people that said their grandparents used to scrub pans with small patches of riveted mail...
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