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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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 Posted: Fri 01 Aug, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: info on Honeylane sax |
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I'm looking for the dimensions of the copper-inlayed sax found at Honeylane, blade length in particular. It would be good to know the thickness, too. I've always thought this was one of the smaller ones of the type, but honestly I do not know.
Thanks in advance.
 Attachment: 77.03 KB
Honey lane seax
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
I've seen the Honeylane Seax in person. I don't have exact measurements but I'd estimate the blade to be about 20cm long. From pictures you'd think it would be small and delicate but it's quite bulky, you could imagine a poor ceorl using it in conjunction with a shield as his primary armament. It's like an Anglo-Saxon bowie knife.
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Audun Refsahl
Location: Norway Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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is the tang on that knife bendt out of shape, or is it supposed to be like that?
just bacon...
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Audun Refsahl wrote: | | is the tang on that knife bendt out of shape, or is it supposed to be like that? |
That question seems to come up whenever this one gets posted and I don't remember if there was a definitive answer, but if one draws a strait line from the top side of the tang the point seems to be in line or close to in line with the axis of the tang.
The high back would add mass and momentum to a chop I think ?
The seax does seem to " offend " the modern eye as far as aesthetics are concerned ! At least my eye, but that may not have been an issue in period.
If the tang is bent caused by damage I would think that it would look twisted or buckled at the shoulders of the tang as such an extreme bend if accidental should be obvious if one has a close look at it.
A distortion happening when the blade was heat treated " warped " might not look damaged ? Not sure about that, but maybe people experienced with forging blades might be able to give us their take on it !
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Doug Lester
Location: Decatur, IL Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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My guess would be that the tang was bent at some time. I would think that originally that the center line of the tang was parallel to the back of the blade. That's just my opinion as a knife maker. I just don't see what mounting the blade to a handle at that angle would do that was of any advantage.
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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If you look closely it does seem that where the tang meets the blade the iron is thinner and seems to be warped. This has almost certainly been bent.
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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information.
Yeah, I think it was bent simply because it is, as far as I know, the only sax with a tang going off at that angle. The corrosion makes it impossible to say (at least from a photograph) if it was bent or intentional.
I know that earlier styles of sax were quite thick (up to 10mm), but I believe they got thinner over time?
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel Michaelsson wrote: | | If you look closely it does seem that where the tang meets the blade the iron is thinner and seems to be warped. This has almost certainly been bent. |
Here is a picture with a little better light... It does appear there has been some damage in that area.
ks
Attachment: 43.92 KB
Photo by Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Doug Lester
Location: Decatur, IL Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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That new picture even makes it look like the tang was rotated just slightly.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 02 Aug, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kirk Lee Spencer wrote: | | Daniel Michaelsson wrote: | | If you look closely it does seem that where the tang meets the blade the iron is thinner and seems to be warped. This has almost certainly been bent. |
Here is a picture with a little better light... It does appear there has been some damage in that area.
ks |
Possibly broken and hammer welded back on at an angle ? Just another theory ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun 03 Aug, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Possibly broken and hammer welded back on at an angle ? Just another theory ? |
Could be, though I'd wonder what the advantage of such an angle would be. Maybe the handle was pushed onto the tang at a normal angle inline with the blade thereby making it harder for the handle to come off than if the tang was straight?
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 03 Aug, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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The tang is highly corroded on that sax, and in particular in the transition to the blade there is very little metal left. A lot of swords and knives are found bend out of shape, and in the earlier days it was common to bend them back again. Bending out of plane straigthening is a lot easier then in plane straigthening. So it's possible that it was a lot more deformed when it was originally found.
Also keep in mind that a lot of knives found in London are from rubbish dumps, so they represent knives that have been thrown away. So it's also possible that it was already damaged when it was in use, though unless there was a serious defect in the metal, or it had been inside the forge (or in a fire), I don't see how that could have happened. But as this is the only broken back sax with such an out of line tang, I'm pretty certain that this is damage, not the original intended shape.
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 03 Aug, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of months ago a similar discussion was going on and I proposed that the tang was meant to be at this angle, but looking at the bottom of the tang in the pictures I would also agree that it looks like damage. The blade is likely to be mainly wrought iron and so this can bend quite easily.
That being said these were general purpose knives, especially the smaller ones and for any who have tried cooking activities with a seax it is quite clear that the edge line being in line with the bottom of the handle makes a lousy tool for this purpose and the cranked tang would help in this regard considerably. Maybe damage, maybe deliberate but I would say that the inherent value of the metal means for certain it would not be thrown away but recyled or repaired so it was probably ultimately a lost object.
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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sun 03 Aug, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, thank you for the replies. It's always good to hear fresh thinking on the subject.
What makes it odd to me is that the tang is fairly robust for the type. Inclusion-rich or over-heated steel could be to blame.
Perhaps our poor ceorl (I bet he had a spear, in addition to sax and shield) found himself with a sax rather out of whack after his last battle, but then he did throw everything he had into that one blow, only to hit the shield instead of the guy behind it.... I have inflicted similar damage to a knife of roughly the same size due to youthful enthusiasm many years ago. I have seen an antique bowie knife that was deliberately made that way (and it also is the only one of its kind), so I can't rule it out. Best to never say never when it comes to saxes, I've learned.
Perhaps someone got tired of banging their knuckles on the cutting board.
Roughly 20cm (8 inch) blade, then, and not thin by any means.
In which museum is this knife located, perhaps they could give me the measurements?
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Mon 04 Aug, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| G Ezell wrote: | First of all, thank you for the replies. It's always good to hear fresh thinking on the subject.
(I bet he had a spear, in addition to sax and shield)
In which museum is this knife located, perhaps they could give me the measurements? |
Yeah, most men would have owned a spear, it was pretty much the primary weapon for much of the middle ages. However the poorest of the poor would not be able to afford a specialised weapon (a spear has little other application but combat) and would have used something which could be both tool and weapon e.g a seax. I was just adding a backstory . . . kinda lame though, sorry  .
I saw this in the British Museum, about a year ago. If it's still there it'll be upstairs in the Anglo-Saxon/Viking/Frank section. They have a whole display of seaxes.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| G Ezell wrote: | | Perhaps our poor ceorl (I bet he had a spear, in addition to sax and shield) found himself with a sax rather out of whack after his last battle, but then he did throw everything he had into that one blow, only to hit the shield instead of the guy behind it.... |
I'm not so sure that the short broken back saxes were actually part of the weapon kit. They seem to be the direct ancestors to the smaller eating knives that were worn by people from the 12th century onwards (which occasionally still have the broken back blades and or patternwelding), and most that I know are found in cities. So I suspect that these were personal knives of citizens, not warriors like earlier sax types (which eventually evolved into the langsaxes, and then disappeared). Correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jeroen, this seax isn't all that small when you see it in real life. I personally think this would primarily have been a tool for applications such as skinning and gutting animals, it seems a little robust for a scramaseax.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Michaelsson wrote: | | Hi Jeroen, this seax isn't all that small when you see it in real life. |
I know the rough size of it, I've seen it various times up close:)
| Quote: | | I personally think this would primarily have been a tool for applications such as skinning and gutting animals, it seems a little robust for a scramaseax. |
If that were the case, you'd expect to find these more in smaller farming settlements. But most of these saxes have been found inside London. I don't know what London was like in the 9th-10th century, but I'd doubt that people were generally butchering their own animals within the city. I'd rather expect that this sax was the eating knife of a moderately high status citizen of London, which also functioned as self-defense weapon (from robbers, raiding Vikings etc.).
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Daniel Michaelsson
Location: Dena Lagu Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Lundenwic was, throughout most of the Anglo-Saxon Period, just a small trading and agricultural village. It gained more political and commercial importance by the 10th century, but still was hardly a metropolis.
It is, of course, entirely feasible that it may have been an eating utensil but it just seems too big to me. There are lots of seaxes which have been identified as food knives (scramaseax) and they are in general much smaller this.
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This is a standard topic