standing in their war carts, i could see the hussites affection for the flail.....they would take up less room then a pole weapon ...they would hit like a ton of bricks and you could stop them at need by letting them hit the side of the cart
I've seen pics (museum pieces) of multi-chained-and-headed flails. Usually smaller diameter balls. I think this was for more of a "shotgun effect" in that even if one bounced off a shield or armor, the others might get through and hit something vital.
I've played around with a boffer "practice" flail out of curiousity. Since it had effectively no mass (mostly foam and rubber for safety) not much to say on actual effect but much of the tactics were the same as noted here previously. Either cock it back over your shoulder and do a sudden forward snap (wraps over a shield very effectively) or do the "hey look at me" twirl and then strike.
I've handled several infantry flails (pole-mounted types) such as this one:
Which was from the armory in Graz, Austria. Nasty business end, enough pole to keep the distance, and working over a shield wall, or in concert with a couple pike/billmen it could do some serious damage. Any end is going to hurt, and even if you miss with the head the pole itself could stun you.
I've played around with a boffer "practice" flail out of curiousity. Since it had effectively no mass (mostly foam and rubber for safety) not much to say on actual effect but much of the tactics were the same as noted here previously. Either cock it back over your shoulder and do a sudden forward snap (wraps over a shield very effectively) or do the "hey look at me" twirl and then strike.
I've handled several infantry flails (pole-mounted types) such as this one:
Which was from the armory in Graz, Austria. Nasty business end, enough pole to keep the distance, and working over a shield wall, or in concert with a couple pike/billmen it could do some serious damage. Any end is going to hurt, and even if you miss with the head the pole itself could stun you.
| Kelly Powell wrote: |
| standing in their war carts, i could see the hussites affection for the flail.....they would take up less room then a pole weapon ...they would hit like a ton of bricks and you could stop them at need by letting them hit the side of the cart |
Wait. Weren't the Hussites using the long-handled peasants' flail instead? In that case, they might not really have taken up appreciably less room than a polearm.
(And I sort of have the impression--maybe false--that the flail-wielding Hussites were the ones covering the gaps between the war-wagons, not the ones within teh wagons themselves.)
Lafayette,
AS far as the type of flail you're right from the artwork. They all are shown as being types of flails and static headed maces of the two handed/pole variety. That said the Hussite museum does have one pole chain mace with a foot or so long chain. I do wonder if it is original as there is little other evidence but this one chain mace for their use.
They are assumed to have been used between the carts and from behind mantlets or other large shields but we do not have the complete picture I am sure as the primary records are very small. It is rather scary if you study hussites and find that many secondary sources have little to no primary research done. Largely due to the small amount of translated primary records I bet. The only picture I know of with the wagons set for war has a war flail seemingly in the wagon.
RPM
AS far as the type of flail you're right from the artwork. They all are shown as being types of flails and static headed maces of the two handed/pole variety. That said the Hussite museum does have one pole chain mace with a foot or so long chain. I do wonder if it is original as there is little other evidence but this one chain mace for their use.
They are assumed to have been used between the carts and from behind mantlets or other large shields but we do not have the complete picture I am sure as the primary records are very small. It is rather scary if you study hussites and find that many secondary sources have little to no primary research done. Largely due to the small amount of translated primary records I bet. The only picture I know of with the wagons set for war has a war flail seemingly in the wagon.
RPM
| Stuart Quayle wrote: |
| Wow Eric - that looks a superb replica of the flail you featured on the front of the Spanish treatise. As you very well elaquently pointed out before, it must take alot of skill to control without injuring oneself.
Many thanks for showing it :) |
Having used said flail I can say I would prefer shorter chains or longer handle. However lightly padded gloves would be all that is needed to protect the hands from fly-backs (as Eric said the fly-backs do not hurt just rather disconcerting).
Hopefully Eric will get the video available soon, all of us using it on the car had no more practice with it than a few experimental swings before bashing the car.
Fascinating discussion guys, thank you so much much for your great imput and for the additional research links you have provided - very much appreciated :)
Oh how I want a replica of that awesome spiked hussite flail pictured :cool: Got to save my pennies and get me one!
regards
Stuart Q
Oh how I want a replica of that awesome spiked hussite flail pictured :cool: Got to save my pennies and get me one!
regards
Stuart Q
Hello,
Paulus Hector Mair includes instruction in the polearm, "peasant" version. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has done extensive work with the material.
I suspect that any of the metal headed and/or spiked versions are not peasant tools that have been repurposed. Iron and spikes are not necessary for threshing. Additionally I suspect that the peope who used them could affort purpose built weapons - the Hussites were well-equipped with state of the art firearms.
Cheers,
Steven
Paulus Hector Mair includes instruction in the polearm, "peasant" version. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has done extensive work with the material.
I suspect that any of the metal headed and/or spiked versions are not peasant tools that have been repurposed. Iron and spikes are not necessary for threshing. Additionally I suspect that the peope who used them could affort purpose built weapons - the Hussites were well-equipped with state of the art firearms.
Cheers,
Steven
Hi Steven
That is a very persuasive arguement you expound on the status of persons likely to have used the spiked hussite flail. Yes, why not - surely a hussite of higher social status than peasant would foresee the potential of such a weapon.
I hear this tome by Paulus Hector Mair mentioned occassionally, I would be extremely grateful if anyone could remind me please:
1. what the exact title of the book is ISBN number, publisher etc.?
2. how much one would expect to pay for a new or reasonable used copy?
3. is it recommended reading for anyone interested in staff-weapons and associated fighting techniques, if so, just how highly would you rate it and why?
4. silly question - is the text translated into English?
Many thanks in advance, have been thinking about getting hold of this book when I can afford it, but would be grateful for any imput from those who have read it.
regards
Stuart Q
That is a very persuasive arguement you expound on the status of persons likely to have used the spiked hussite flail. Yes, why not - surely a hussite of higher social status than peasant would foresee the potential of such a weapon.
I hear this tome by Paulus Hector Mair mentioned occassionally, I would be extremely grateful if anyone could remind me please:
1. what the exact title of the book is ISBN number, publisher etc.?
2. how much one would expect to pay for a new or reasonable used copy?
3. is it recommended reading for anyone interested in staff-weapons and associated fighting techniques, if so, just how highly would you rate it and why?
4. silly question - is the text translated into English?
Many thanks in advance, have been thinking about getting hold of this book when I can afford it, but would be grateful for any imput from those who have read it.
regards
Stuart Q
Steven,
I do not know if that’s entirely true. You might not need the metal spikes on them or bands but for a pence worth of metal any blacksmith could make a common wheat threshing tool into one. It turns a very common item into a effective weapon in just moments.
The majority of those involved with the Hussite movement were very poor and even later it is only after effective raiding and a number of victories they have funds and even then not always enough. Most period sources indicate farmers and shepherds were very common components. As Jan Huss spent much of his time teaching these people this is a logical reason why so many were from strata. Its one of the main points of Hussite theology and ideology.
Anyone with a gun at this time would be state of the art more or less I can agree with that. The flailmen are not the ones buying said guns though. Jan Zizka more or less compelled local gun manufacture to do what he needed. He may have compelled them with his horde of followers but they individually were not the ones buying them. Money is of little matter in this situation. The movement involved every social group but if 12-14 men of every 20 Hussite company were flailmen and 90% or more of their manpower was drawn from the peasantry my guess is they were used for flailmen, and for a reason. Not to say they cannot be used outside this group but there is a reason contemporary sources indicate its ties to the peasant class.
RPM
I do not know if that’s entirely true. You might not need the metal spikes on them or bands but for a pence worth of metal any blacksmith could make a common wheat threshing tool into one. It turns a very common item into a effective weapon in just moments.
The majority of those involved with the Hussite movement were very poor and even later it is only after effective raiding and a number of victories they have funds and even then not always enough. Most period sources indicate farmers and shepherds were very common components. As Jan Huss spent much of his time teaching these people this is a logical reason why so many were from strata. Its one of the main points of Hussite theology and ideology.
Anyone with a gun at this time would be state of the art more or less I can agree with that. The flailmen are not the ones buying said guns though. Jan Zizka more or less compelled local gun manufacture to do what he needed. He may have compelled them with his horde of followers but they individually were not the ones buying them. Money is of little matter in this situation. The movement involved every social group but if 12-14 men of every 20 Hussite company were flailmen and 90% or more of their manpower was drawn from the peasantry my guess is they were used for flailmen, and for a reason. Not to say they cannot be used outside this group but there is a reason contemporary sources indicate its ties to the peasant class.
RPM
Many thanks Randall for your very informed imput on the Hussites, fascinating stuff!
I really need to read up on their wars and rebellion.
best wishes
Stuart
I really need to read up on their wars and rebellion.
best wishes
Stuart
Randall-
Thanks for the info. Do you have any recommendations for where I can get more info on the subject of the Hussite Wars?
Stuart Q-
Paulus Hector Mair is a 16th century teacher/author martial arts. His books are huge, lavishly illustrated, fantastically out-of-print and written in hard to even transcribe German and/or Latin.
Some searching you give you online access to scans of the original. A modern book on the polearm section and some other various bits.
Here's a start in Wikipedia
Thanks,
Steven[/url]
Thanks for the info. Do you have any recommendations for where I can get more info on the subject of the Hussite Wars?
Stuart Q-
Paulus Hector Mair is a 16th century teacher/author martial arts. His books are huge, lavishly illustrated, fantastically out-of-print and written in hard to even transcribe German and/or Latin.
Some searching you give you online access to scans of the original. A modern book on the polearm section and some other various bits.
Here's a start in Wikipedia
Thanks,
Steven[/url]
Many thanks Steven
The Wikipedia link to Paulus Hector Mair has given me a further link to Paladin Press (thanks also Randall), where I can purchase 'Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair' by David James Knight and Brian Hunt for USD40.00 :cool:
On reading the Paladin Press review for their book it looks like it's very well researched translation of Mair's original wrtings, I am definitely looking to buy this book.
The Wikipedia link to Paulus Hector Mair has given me a further link to Paladin Press (thanks also Randall), where I can purchase 'Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair' by David James Knight and Brian Hunt for USD40.00 :cool:
On reading the Paladin Press review for their book it looks like it's very well researched translation of Mair's original wrtings, I am definitely looking to buy this book.
Steven,
Here is a great list of places to look for Hussites.
Fudge, Thomas A.
The Crusade against Heretics in Bohemia, 1418–1437: Sources and Documents for the Hussite Crusades, Aldershot, U.K., 2002. (This has over 200 period documents! By far the best and the only English translated primary sources on Hussites)
Secondary
Bartoš, František Michálek. The Hussite Revolution, 1424–1437. Edited by John Klassen, translated by J. Weir. New York, 1986. Translation of Husitská revoluce. Study by a leading Czech scholar.
David, Zdenĕk V. Finding the Middle Way: The Utraquists' Liberal Challenge to Rome and Luther. Baltimore, 2003. Definitive study of the Hussite tradition during the Reformation.
Fudge, Thomas A. The Magnificent Ride: The First Reformation in Hussite Bohemia. Aldershot, U.K., 1998. Emphasis on heresy, propaganda, and theological motifs up to 1437.
Heymann, Frederick G. George of Bohemia: King of Heretics. Princeton, 1965. Political history of the movement up to the 1470s.
——. John Žižka and the Hussite Revolution. New York, 1969. Fully documented with 11 sources appended.
Holeton, David R., and Zdenĕk V. David, eds. The Bohemian Reformation and Religious Practice. 5 vols. Prague, 1996–2004. Wide-ranging collection of essays by international scholars of Hussitism.
Kaminsky, Howard. A History of the Hussite Revolution. Berkeley, 1967. The definitive study; history-of-ideas approach that stops at 1424.
Klassen, John M. The Nobility and the Making of the Hussite Revolution. New York, 1978. Insightful perspective with emphasis on the barons and political aspects of the movement.
Odložilík, Otakar. The Hussite King: Bohemia in European Affairs 1440–1471. New Brunswick, N.J., 1965. Contextual study of Hussite Bohemia with emphasis on politics.
Říčan, Rudolf. The History of the Unity of Brethren. Translated by C. Daniel Crews. Bethlehem, Pa., 1992. Translation of a Czech work and essential for understanding the larger dimensions of the Hussites up to the 1620s.
Šmahel, František. "The Idea of the 'Nation' in Hussite Bohemia." Translated by R. F. Samsour. Historica 16 (1969): 143–247 and 17 (1970): 93–197. Vigorous assessment of ideological and political aspects of national identity.
Wagner, Murray L. Petr Chelčický: A Radical Separatist in Hussite Bohemia. Scottdale, Pa., 1983. Excellent monograph emphasizing radical theology and political thought.
This list was actually put together by Thomas Fudge the decent chap that he is himself. Anything that he has written on the subject is very useful as well.
Stu,
Like I said his book is very good. Somewhat a life work for him if you will. Sad it was cut short, likely in relation to his book.
RPM
Here is a great list of places to look for Hussites.
Fudge, Thomas A.
The Crusade against Heretics in Bohemia, 1418–1437: Sources and Documents for the Hussite Crusades, Aldershot, U.K., 2002. (This has over 200 period documents! By far the best and the only English translated primary sources on Hussites)
Secondary
Bartoš, František Michálek. The Hussite Revolution, 1424–1437. Edited by John Klassen, translated by J. Weir. New York, 1986. Translation of Husitská revoluce. Study by a leading Czech scholar.
David, Zdenĕk V. Finding the Middle Way: The Utraquists' Liberal Challenge to Rome and Luther. Baltimore, 2003. Definitive study of the Hussite tradition during the Reformation.
Fudge, Thomas A. The Magnificent Ride: The First Reformation in Hussite Bohemia. Aldershot, U.K., 1998. Emphasis on heresy, propaganda, and theological motifs up to 1437.
Heymann, Frederick G. George of Bohemia: King of Heretics. Princeton, 1965. Political history of the movement up to the 1470s.
——. John Žižka and the Hussite Revolution. New York, 1969. Fully documented with 11 sources appended.
Holeton, David R., and Zdenĕk V. David, eds. The Bohemian Reformation and Religious Practice. 5 vols. Prague, 1996–2004. Wide-ranging collection of essays by international scholars of Hussitism.
Kaminsky, Howard. A History of the Hussite Revolution. Berkeley, 1967. The definitive study; history-of-ideas approach that stops at 1424.
Klassen, John M. The Nobility and the Making of the Hussite Revolution. New York, 1978. Insightful perspective with emphasis on the barons and political aspects of the movement.
Odložilík, Otakar. The Hussite King: Bohemia in European Affairs 1440–1471. New Brunswick, N.J., 1965. Contextual study of Hussite Bohemia with emphasis on politics.
Říčan, Rudolf. The History of the Unity of Brethren. Translated by C. Daniel Crews. Bethlehem, Pa., 1992. Translation of a Czech work and essential for understanding the larger dimensions of the Hussites up to the 1620s.
Šmahel, František. "The Idea of the 'Nation' in Hussite Bohemia." Translated by R. F. Samsour. Historica 16 (1969): 143–247 and 17 (1970): 93–197. Vigorous assessment of ideological and political aspects of national identity.
Wagner, Murray L. Petr Chelčický: A Radical Separatist in Hussite Bohemia. Scottdale, Pa., 1983. Excellent monograph emphasizing radical theology and political thought.
This list was actually put together by Thomas Fudge the decent chap that he is himself. Anything that he has written on the subject is very useful as well.
Stu,
Like I said his book is very good. Somewhat a life work for him if you will. Sad it was cut short, likely in relation to his book.
RPM
| James Nordstrom wrote: |
| Hopefully Eric will get the video available soon, all of us using it on the car had no more practice with it than a few experimental swings before bashing the car. |
You can see them here.
Wow! very impressive footage, many thanks for showing it Eric :cool:
It looks like momentum of the weapon can be gained almost immediately, but more importantly sustained momentum seems possible so long as you the right technique (now that must take so practice I imagine). Also, repeated precision hits look feasible. I think you would have to be very careful of the 'bounce back ' though.
I wonder how deep it dented the metal bodywork?
regards
Stuart Q
It looks like momentum of the weapon can be gained almost immediately, but more importantly sustained momentum seems possible so long as you the right technique (now that must take so practice I imagine). Also, repeated precision hits look feasible. I think you would have to be very careful of the 'bounce back ' though.
I wonder how deep it dented the metal bodywork?
regards
Stuart Q
Hi Stuart,
Yes, the momentum can be regained quite quickly and easily. I think part of it is that not all momentum is lost, and no energy is lost fighting bounce back or vibration. Remember, we had very little practice before we shot these videos - a couple minutes tops. Continued motion was a cinch, as was repeated precision (bearing in mind that these are flails, not foils, and full circles not tiny disengages). The trunk was massively dented all over, and there are rips in the metal. Hitting other parts of the car, especially the roof, produced larger dents. The depth of dents against the car and against armor on a pell varied from half an inch to several inches. Also, it doesn't show well in the video, but the car is actually bouncing on its shocks, especially when Jim hits it.
With the three headed flail, there was very little bounce back against the car, but a little more against the armor. There was significantly more bounce back with the single headed flail. Truthfully, I felt a lot safer using the 3-headed one. A *lot* safer.
Really, the difficult thing is changing direction and keeping the flail moving in a way that seems effective for a fight. It would be a simple matter for someone with little training to use it against targets whose movement is compromised. Also, I imagine it would blow right through or around a lot of standard defenses, so nimbleness may not be a strong requirement. I'll have to figure that one out by practicing with it alone and seeing how good I get, I'm not going to try to convince one of my friends to try and parry a flail attack :D
Yes, the momentum can be regained quite quickly and easily. I think part of it is that not all momentum is lost, and no energy is lost fighting bounce back or vibration. Remember, we had very little practice before we shot these videos - a couple minutes tops. Continued motion was a cinch, as was repeated precision (bearing in mind that these are flails, not foils, and full circles not tiny disengages). The trunk was massively dented all over, and there are rips in the metal. Hitting other parts of the car, especially the roof, produced larger dents. The depth of dents against the car and against armor on a pell varied from half an inch to several inches. Also, it doesn't show well in the video, but the car is actually bouncing on its shocks, especially when Jim hits it.
With the three headed flail, there was very little bounce back against the car, but a little more against the armor. There was significantly more bounce back with the single headed flail. Truthfully, I felt a lot safer using the 3-headed one. A *lot* safer.
Really, the difficult thing is changing direction and keeping the flail moving in a way that seems effective for a fight. It would be a simple matter for someone with little training to use it against targets whose movement is compromised. Also, I imagine it would blow right through or around a lot of standard defenses, so nimbleness may not be a strong requirement. I'll have to figure that one out by practicing with it alone and seeing how good I get, I'm not going to try to convince one of my friends to try and parry a flail attack :D
| Eric Myers wrote: |
| Also, I imagine it would blow right through or around a lot of standard defenses, so nimbleness may not be a strong requirement. I'll have to figure that one out by practicing with it alone and seeing how good I get, I'm not going to try to convince one of my friends to try and parry a flail attack :D |
Probably the best parry is a crossbow at 50 yards. ;) :D
On a battlefield if one had to worry about a whole line of guys armed with these supplemented by other polearms, handgonnes, crossbows and bows finding a counter would be difficult even if one had space to move: If stuck in a tight press
were getting out of the way or controlling the distance wasn't possible it seems like a nightmare scenario to me. :eek: :lol:
If we look at what the Imperials and other Germans actually did to counter the threat, then their "best parry" was improved artillery with longer range, better accuracy, and more reliable punch....
Here are some impact and pole weapons including a few flail-types.
Attachment: 49.68 KB
From the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München
Attachment: 75.56 KB
From the Dresden-Historisches Museum
Attachment: 85.65 KB
From the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München
Attachment: 49.68 KBFrom the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München
Attachment: 75.56 KBFrom the Dresden-Historisches Museum
Attachment: 85.65 KBFrom the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München
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