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Björn Kronisch
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 Posted: Sun 08 Jun, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / makers? |
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Hello forumites,
So far I haven't been able to find any information on how axes, maces and warhammers with metal shafts are/were constructed. Does anyone know how the heads were attached to the shaft or whether they maybe were build in one piece?
Another thing, were the shafts hollow? This would reduce weight and as far as I know a tube is more resistant to damage than a solid rod.
And, last but not least, are there any makers/manufacturers to be recommended who produce such weapons in high quality? The horseman's axe from Arms & Armor has caught my eye and the review here on the site gives a nice impression. Does anyone own this axe and could comment on it?
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Bren O
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jun, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I tried making one. I couldn't figure it out to well either. The shaft is 12mm square 9260, which has been twisted, then heat treated. To attch the head I narrowed the shaft down to 8mm, slid it on, then twisted the shaft, thus making it too wide for the head to slide off. To top it off I forged the tip into a small blade. After a bit of use the head became wobbley, so that didn't go so well. I saw a show (nat geo perfect weapon) where they did the solid twisted shaft. Can't remember how they attached the head though.
Can't tell you who you can buy them off, sorry.
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Nathan Gilleland
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jun, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't tell you how they are constructed, and I'm unable to find anything to say that they did make them historically. From what I'm able to find, it seems that they would use a wooden shaft that they would affix the head onto. They often had a metal plate that extended down each side of the head that was riveted onto the shaft. This helped secure the head and strengthened/protected the shaft.
Sorry I couldn't really help with any metalworking tips.
Hope you find what you're looking for!
Seek Honor before Wealth,
Truth before Honor,
God Before all
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C. Gadda
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jun, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / make |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: | Hello forumites,
So far I haven't been able to find any information on how axes, maces and warhammers with metal shafts are/were constructed. Does anyone know how the heads were attached to the shaft or whether they maybe were build in one piece?
Another thing, were the shafts hollow? This would reduce weight and as far as I know a tube is more resistant to damage than a solid rod.
And, last but not least, are there any makers/manufacturers to be recommended who produce such weapons in high quality? The horseman's axe from Arms & Armor has caught my eye and the review here on the site gives a nice impression. Does anyone own this axe and could comment on it? |
I believe in the cases of axes and hammers that the heads were separate - the heads would have a hole bored through and be slipped on to the end of the haft, and likely were peened in place, in much the same manner that one would peen a sword hilt together. Flanged maces usually had the flanges brazed on individually to the haft.
As for whether or not the hafts were hollow, that varied. Some weapons did appear to have hollow hafts, especially those from the Orient. Solid examples seem more common in Europe.
I did (well, still do - see below) an example of the A&A Horseman's Axe that I got off of eBay a few years ago. Though quite nice, I decided to remake it to be more historically accurate (for example, the head and guard discs are welded in place - though quite sturdy, that was not done in period). Basically, I stripped off the head and hilt, and modified the haft so that I could slip the head back on and peen it in place, as I believe was done historically. I then ground down the "hilt" end of the haft to be more like a sword tang, and then slipped a new guard disc, grip, pommel disc, and washer on, and peened in place. Turned out well.
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the answers so far. Such a pity that the head came loose, Bren... the axe looks very beautiful and practical actually.
| Quote: | | (for example, the head and guard discs are welded in place - though quite sturdy, that was not done in period) |
Ah, that's interesting to know. I was wondering about how these discs would be attached to the shaft. What would you say, are there any parts in the constructions of A & A's axe which are likely to come loose or break after heavy usage over time? How sharp was the axe blade when it arrived and how well can it take (and keep) a sharp edge?
By the way, in case there's any case for you to consider parting with the axe that you modified, let me know.  I doubt it, but just in case...
And another thing, does anyone own and can comment the spiked mace from Hanwei? How sturdy is its construction?
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C. Gadda
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: |
| Quote: | | (for example, the head and guard discs are welded in place - though quite sturdy, that was not done in period) |
Ah, that's interesting to know. I was wondering about how these discs would be attached to the shaft. What would you say, are there any parts in the constructions of A & A's axe which are likely to come loose or break after heavy usage over time? How sharp was the axe blade when it arrived and how well can it take (and keep) a sharp edge?
By the way, in case there's any case for you to consider parting with the axe that you modified, let me know. I doubt it, but just in case...
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A&A does VERY sturdy stuff - you shouldn't have anything come loose. I've never been disappointed in any of their pieces (which is why I own so many). The blade was sharp, but had a sort of "V" beveled edge, which I carefully corrected to be more sword like (though still fairly stout).
I do have a photo montage, along with a more detailed write up, that describes what I did in modifying the piece. But because its a bit photo heavy I haven't figured out precisely how to post it to the 'Net, at least not easily.
Actually, I might well be willing to sell or trade it, but I need to get its replacement at least started before I do that. I still need to approach A&A and ask them how much they want for the head of a Horseman's axe, with one modification (in this case, a smaller haft hole, since I'm going to use the same type of construction).
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / make |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: | Hello forumites,
So far I haven't been able to find any information on how axes, maces and warhammers with metal shafts are/were constructed. Does anyone know how the heads were attached to the shaft or whether they maybe were build in one piece? |
Just guessing here but if I were fitting a solid forged metal head to a metal shaft I'd drift a hole through the head at the same size as, or just very slightly smaller than, the shaft then reheat it, set it onto the cold shaft and cool it. The thermal contraction around the shaft would probably keep it completely tight permanently. You could also braze or solder a join like that relatively easily as well.
For flanged maces as far as I know the flanges were brazed on. I can't think of another way of doing it with medieval tools that would be as strong but I would be curious to see a metalurgical analysis of an extant piece.
On Divers Arts might have something to say on the topic of brazing and soldering, but I haven't looked through the metalwork sections of it yet.
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Another thing, were the shafts hollow? This would reduce weight and as far as I know a tube is more resistant to damage than a solid rod. |
Tubular hafts would surprise me. Tubes are significantly more difficult to make than solid rods with medieval technology, and for a lot of this type of weapon weight reduction isn't necessarily a desirable goal.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / make |
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| Al Muckart wrote: |
Tubular hafts would surprise me. Tubes are significantly more difficult to make than solid rods with medieval technology, and for a lot of this type of weapon weight reduction isn't necessarily a desirable goal. |
Well, then prepare to be surprised.  There are a number of examples with tubular hafts.
Too much weight is as undesirable as too little.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / make |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Al Muckart wrote: |
Tubular hafts would surprise me. Tubes are significantly more difficult to make than solid rods with medieval technology, and for a lot of this type of weapon weight reduction isn't necessarily a desirable goal. |
Well, then prepare to be surprised. There are a number of examples with tubular hafts.
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Cool. Can you point me at specific examples?
Do we have any idea how they were made? I'm assuming they would be rolled around a mandrel and forge welded?
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Full metal axes, maces, warhammers - construction / make |
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| Al Muckart wrote: |
Cool. Can you point me at specific examples?
Do we have any idea how they were made? I'm assuming they would be rolled around a mandrel and forge welded? |
There's one in a Peter Finer catalogue from the late 90s. There are others in various books I have. I'll see what I can scan in the next few days.
I'd have to look at them more closely to figure out construction. I honestly hadn't given it much thought until this thread came along.
There's one I remember with a square haft that was hollow.
Check out our Spotlight Article on Combination Weapons. Many of the axes and maces combined with firearms have hollow hafts that double as the gun's barrel. Others have hidden blade extensions.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Al Muckart
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jun, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a mace from the 1997 Peter Finer catalogue. Its haft is hollow.
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Catalogue Text
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jun, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Here's a mace from the 1997 Peter Finer catalogue. Its haft is hollow. |
Thanks Chad, that's really neat.
I'm going to have to figure out how they did that now ...
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Here are two more with tubular hafts. Both formerly in the Howard Curtis collection. Current whereabouts unknown.
The one on the left has a really sloppily done seam.
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the pictures, Chad. So there are historical examples for tubular shafts... not surprising considering their practical use. I wonder how such tubes were made with medieval tools and techniques.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: | | Thank you for the pictures, Chad. So there are historical examples for tubular shafts... not surprising considering their practical use. I wonder how such tubes were made with medieval tools and techniques. |
There are definitely historical examples, and more than what I've scanned. There are 2 or 3 in a German book I have that look to have tubular hafts, but my German is poor enough that I can't read the text to be sure they're hollow.
I've seen others in books that look like they could be hollow, but the text doesn't mention whether they are or not.
I would guess that it may have even been pretty common for all-metal maces to have tubular hafts.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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The German text should not be any problem, as a I'm a native speaker. If you send me the pages I can translate it.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: | | The German text should not be any problem, as a I'm a native speaker. If you send me the pages I can translate it. |
Thanks for the offer. Maybe I'll scan them later if I have time. I'm not going to type it all up.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jun, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: | | Thank you for the pictures, Chad. So there are historical examples for tubular shafts... not surprising considering their practical use. I wonder how such tubes were made with medieval tools and techniques. |
Looking at the one Chad posted with the sloppy seam it looks like they take a sheet and roll it around a mandrel then forge weld up the side.
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Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Les Williams
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren O wrote: | I tried making one. I couldn't figure it out to well either. The shaft is 12mm square 9260, which has been twisted, then heat treated. To attch the head I narrowed the shaft down to 8mm, slid it on, then twisted the shaft, thus making it too wide for the head to slide off. To top it off I forged the tip into a small blade. After a bit of use the head became wobbley, so that didn't go so well. I saw a show (nat geo perfect weapon) where they did the solid twisted shaft. Can't remember how they attached the head though.
Can't tell you who you can buy them off, sorry.
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OK now that is some work. Where did the images come from? Very interested to find the artist.
Les
medieval swords
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This is a standard topic