[Simon Van Der Spoel]

Hey all, newcomer on deck, thought I'd drop in and say hi, I'm looking at re-enacting an effigy of Don Bernaldo...Estanza, who died in 1237, so wedge riveted mail will be part of the part of the plan, so do you guys know of decent wedge riveted mail distributers? I know of the riveted mail from india that is getting around Australia, but that's not wedge riveted its round headed rivets, but anyone know of any others? I have a very nice sword from manning imperial, Craig's work is just brilliant, I'll have to post pictures or a link soon

Talk soon all,

Simon VDS

[Dan Howard]

1237 is the very earliest that wedge-riveted mail begins to appear - and only in Germany. You'd probably be ok if you went with round riveted mail. But it is really a moot point. Unless someone like Erik replicates the links for you they won't be even close to historical.

[Corey D. Sullivan]

I cannot comment on the wedge vs. round at the time of 1237, or the accuracy of indian maille, but I do know that these guys sell them, sort of:

http://www.eindiabusiness.com/wedgerivetedchainmail/query.html

[Michael Edelson]

Wedge rivets and round rivets look about the same from the top (outside of mail). It's only if you look at the back you can see the difference. As Howard said, the Indian round rivet looks nothing like historical round rivet. The Indian wedge rivet stuff, when it's good, looks fairly close, except the riveted area is squashed flat instead of having that mountain peak shape (I think they call it watershed look?).

This is of course a general statement...there are probably times and/or places where this is not so, but none that I know of. Also, I believe that in the 13th century you were most likely looking at alternating row solid/riveted.

[Grayson C.]

This thread begs me to ask a (slightly off topic) question...



What's the difference?

[Chris Gilman]

In my opinion your biggest issue is tailoring. Untailored mail is an obscenity and an abomination on the face of the earth…Ok well may be I find it silly.
People get accurate styles of mail, nicely made plate, but T-tunic mail shirts. They don’t fit and frankly look terrible. Real mail was made in a human, tailored, form. The sleeves didn’t bag out twice the size of your forearm and sag around your midriff like a liposuction patient. It should fit nice and close, have gussets, nip and tucks, crotch flaps, and all sorts of wonderful tailoring tricks that reduce the weight, make it really fit, work better and make it look better.
So gentlemen read some books, get out you pliers and tailor your mail.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Grayson C.]

Hey Jean

Sorry I wasn't questioning the legitimacy, merely the structure of the maille itself - I'm afraid I don't understand what is being discussed - All I know is "rivitted" and "butted."


Thanks

[Jean Thibodeau]

[James Barker]

The difference is in shape, wire thicknesses, consistency, rivets. The details on the higher end shirts vs. the real deal are less off than the cheap stuff but to the trained eye you can see the differences up close. One detail is most production stuff is round while most historical stuff is slightly oval.

I tend to spend the extra money for maille and get something like the GDFB maille than the ultra cheap Van Sussen Ebay shirts which are barely a step above butted maille in look.


I am with Dan on the flat maille dating; the 13th century is when flat riveted links show so you may want to think about using round riveted with alternating flat punched links. Also to make any shirt more historical it should be tailored. A wedge gore in the neck front and back, gores in the front and back body thin at the chest wide at the opening like a tunic, and gussets under the arm.

[C. Gadda]

Is there any evidence for tailoring in early material, such as pre-Roman conquest Celtic or Migration/Viking Age shirts? I would assume they did, as neither the Vikings nor the Celts were fools, but I was wondering if any hard evidence has turned up.

I have in mind the remarkably well preserved hauberk from Vimose (~4th century A.D., I think) which is nearly intact. Does anyone know if a thorough analysis was ever done on that one, and if so were the results ever published?

[Ed Toton]

That's been my biggest complaint about most off-the-shelf mail available, is that it's not tailored, and generally is designed like flat T-tunics. I'd love to see some patterns or details on proper tailoring of the body, arms, etc, as it would have been done in period. I tend to do trial and error in working on my hauberk.

[M. Eversberg II]

James, what are these "gores" you speak of? I would like to see a shirt proper, as I think I've only seen "off the shelf" stuff. Would a maille shirt be made as a generic T-tunic, then fitted as part of you buying?

M.

[James Barker]

[Felix R.]

I think, it qould be no problem to tailor/fit a off the shelf shirt. Indeed some helpful comments on this would be appreciated. It is exactly what I am trying to do in the future. I ordered a capapie Haubergeon and want to change it, so it fits well. One thing that makes tailoring a little difficult is, when the inner diameter to wire thickness ratio is of, so the maille has too much strech. Then it is nearly impossible to tailor. But that doesn´t seem to be much of a problem in flat rings.

EDIT: That is a nice example, James.

[M. Eversberg II]

So to construct this, you simply leave that V open, then come back with thicker rings? The pictures are good, but not too sure about the construction just by looking at them -- wire seems thicker to me. I am assuming this constricts it a little around the shoulders, so it rides better?

M.

[Chad Arnow]

[Felix R.]

No, it´s is actually not thicker rings. It is tailoring. When you have a look at how the gore is set in, you will see that some rings catch 5 rings instead of 4. This wouldn´t be obious if you distribute those rings evenly. But when set in a pattern, it looks like a triangle is set in. In this way you can make the weave wider or more narrow. Depending on the position and distribution of those rings you will recognise triangles or not.

[James Barker]

[Craig Peters]