Can anyone help me identify this sword? -- myArmoury.com

Maria HR

Hello everybody! Can anyone help me identify this sword (dirk?) My aunt got it at an antique shop a few years back and they just told her it was asiatic. I am attaching a picture with the sword and sheath. I will attach another picture with a close up of the marks.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,

Maria HR

Maria HR

Hi again, here I am attaching a close up of the mark on the sword.

thanks again and regards,

Maria HR

Bennison N · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 4:22 am Post subject:

Hi Maria,

Please show a better pic of the characters on each side. They are almost definitely Chinese, seeming to be stamped on the blade in the very old xiaozhuan style of hanzi, or Chinese writing. If you show me a good picture of them, or an accurate drawing, and I will tell you what they say. The style of the entire sword is Chinese too, by what I can tell from the photos.

It's very nice, and looks good for practicing certain types of martial arts I can think of. Was it expensive? Also, is it heavy? How long is it exactly, both the blade by itself and in total? How far down the blade can you rest it to make it balance, say on your finger or something? Please post some more pics from various angles.

It hasn't been looked after very well in it's life, but it's very interesting. I'd like to know what you know about it... I don't think it's VERY old, but it is unusual, especially with the ball bearings in the blade like that, and being quite short and wide.

Thomas Watt · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 4:23 am Post subject:

My my, that's an odd one.
Ball bearings inside the blade center? To my mind, that brings it closer to the modern period than ancient.
Also the characters are non-Western (but since this is outside my area of expertise I could not venture a guess about which language they originate from).
Is the saw-toothed blade shown just above the weapon a part of the scabbard or an attachment to the weapon itself?

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Hi Maria

It certainly appears to be a Chinese tao. I would agree with Bennison and Thomas that it doesn't seem to be very old though.
Interestingly the sword appears to be massive, the thickness of the blade especially. Without exception, all those that I have seen and used ( I used to practice Tai Chi and Pa Kua for some years), were very thin, the blades being extremely whipy, as can be seen in any number of martial arts movies. I am afraid that Japanese swords, not Chinese, are my thing, so I cannot help you further. But if you can get hold of a copy of Stones glossary (check the bibliography on this forum for details), then I am certain that you will find out much more about this type of weapon there. One of the books main strengths is the richness of its information on far eastern, Asian and ethnic weapons.
The 'saw tooth blade' on the top Thomas, appears to be the wooden scabbard showing between two lobated steel edges running down the sides of the scabbard ?
whilst perhaps not of great antiquity, it is a nice piece to display on the wall ! Happy

Regards,

Russ Happy

EDIT: Here is a link to the page regarding Stones's Glossary.....

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=0486407268

Jeff Kaisla · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 7:13 am Post subject:

I agree that it looks like a chinese tao of some sort...never seen or heard of the likes of it before though. The ball bearings are indeed strange, I'm guessing they are supposed to alter the PoB of the sword, bringing it back when held in a guard to make the blade faster, and when swung, ading additional weight to the tip for cutting power....just a guess and an assumption that the ball bearings move freely. One does wonder though, is it hand forged like that (keeping the exact spacing for those balls to roll yet remain encased,That would take some skill!) or was the slot cut out and ground after forging? An interesting piece for sure.

Maria HR · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Thanks to all for all the info!!

Thanks! To all of you for sharing your knowledge to help me out. I will take some other pictures and will post ASAP.

Regards and thanks again.

Maria HR

Maria HR

Thanks for the info Bennison, the sword is heavy, my aunt doesn't remember how much she paid for it. The handle and sheath is wood covered with leather.

Maria HR · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: More Pics

Hi, This is the inside of the sheath.

Maria HR

Bennison N · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

Hi Maria,

I will look into the meanings of the hanzi for you and get back ASAP. That style of Chinese has been seen on items from the Bronze Age, and was popular during the early Dynasties, so it has evolved quite a lot since then.

This weapon is not a Dao ("Tao" if you prefer the antiquated Wade-Giles system of romanizing Chinese...), it is a Jian. There is a kind of Chinese sword called a Tie Jian, which is short and thick like this one. I have never seen one with a slotted blade... I haven't seen a lot of them, though, so there may very well be one, and your sword may be modeled on it. As I understand, Tie Jian are specialized weapons for cleaving armour.

There is an antique Tie Jian for viewing here, from the Ming Dynasty:
http://www.chinesearms.com/ebaystore/huntiejian/huntiejian.htm

And another at the same site, this one with the "Seven Star" brass pins along the blade, vaguely listed as from "1800-1900", therefore late Qing Dynasty:
http://www.chinesearms.com/armorbreaker/armorbreaker.htm

I recommend looking into them for collectors of rare weapons, or for those interested in Chinese swords.

I remember seeing that Jet Li's character in the movie "Hero" had slots in his sword's blade like yours does. He used them to catch Zhang Ziyi's character's swords in one scene and disarm her. You can see a picture of this sword by googling "Hero Movie Sword".

Maria HR · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: This one looks similar

Hi, Bennison, Thanks for all the info and your time. I checked the pages you recommended and were useful, I found this one, with the background you gave me. It looks similar.
Thanks again and regards,

Maria HR

http://www.artemis-cuchilleria.com/coleccion_espadas_chinas1.htm

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Hi Folks,

Bennison, Some interesting links there, thanks ! Happy

Dao ( Tao), is, if I recall correctly, also often used to describe the slightly curved , broad bladed swords used in China. Though I thought that it was also a general Chinese term for sword, much the same as Tô is used in Japan. However,as I said earlier, I am really into Japanese swords, not Chinese, so my knowledge is severely limited Confused

One thing that did occur to me though, was the possibility that it may in fact be a ral gri from Tibet ?? These are very similar to the Chinese weapons, and do usually have a thicker blade ?? Just a thought. Also could the hanzi be sanskrit ?

Thankyou for the information and links.

Regards,

Russ

Ps. I am not a member of it, but doesn't the Sword Forum have a special section on Chinese weapons ??

Bennison N · Posted: Mon 28 Apr, 2008 1:29 am Post subject:

Russ,

I don't believe it's Sanskrit. The writing at the bottom of my sig is Sanskrit, and it doesn't appear similar enough. Maria's sword doesn't seem to be very old, it may very well be modelled from a Tibetan Ral Gri. The scabbard, assuming it is original, is not very Chinese.

What leads me to think it's Chinese, apart from the xiaozhuan hanzi, is the pommel and grip shape. I have a Mu Jian, which means "Wood Sword" and describes what it is perfectly, with nearly the exact same. The difference is that the crossguard on my Mu Jian faces the other way, towards the blade, and is proportionately smaller. A lot of later dynasty swords do have the crossguard facing back towards the hand.

It is important to make the distinction between Jian and Dao. The Jian in Chinese culture is not unlike the Katana in Japanese culture. A noble weapon, considered higher martial arts. Carrying a Jian does not make you a nobleman, though, which is where Jian and Katana differ.

Interestingly, the kanji for Katana is the character for Dao, and means "knife". Dao have only one edge. Jian have two. The kanji for Ken is the same as Jian.

Maria HR · Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Hi everybody, I'm back

Hi Russ, Bennison, Jeff and Thomas,

I'm back, I was traveling. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. Since I don't know anything about swords, and I felt bad about the (has not been looked after part, Bennison) How can I take care of it? My aunt wants to give it to me and I would like to clean it and give it some care. Would it be possible that you could tell me how to do that? Or it has to be done by a professional?
Thanks again for all your help.

Kind Regards,

Maria

Maria HR · Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Sword

Hi, I found this link and this ones has a similar shape, but is much more elaborated and ancient. Regards, Maria

http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/tibet-armor/intro_010.html

Bennison N · Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject:

Hi again Maria!

I would recommend getting a professional to do the first restorative clean-up. It's easy enough to maintain after that.

I've never done it myself, I always get someone else to do it for me at first, because I want shiny and sharp, and trying to sharpen an antique sword yourself without experience is asking for trouble. But I do know there is a lot of experienced antique collectors who frequent this site, and they'll be able to tell you someone good nearby to where you are, or even how to do it yourself without damaging anything.

I like that "Warriors of the Himalayas" site. Thanks for that link. It's a pity that sword you linked to isn't for sale...

Maria HR · Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: thanks!

Bennison, Thanks for your info. I have some people interested on the sword who have the intention to buy it and I wonder how much should l ask for it, I don't know how much I can ask for it, but I really don't know how much it is worth or how much should I accept for it. I don't know what to do, if I keep it, I will invest on having it cleaned etc... but on the other hand, if I sell it, I will like to sell it for what its worth, and right now I don't know. Can you please give me some advise?

Thanks and regards,

Maria HR

Bennison N · Posted: Thu 05 Jun, 2008 2:14 am Post subject:

Maria,

Personally, what I would do is have it restored. By a professional, because a professional won't try to make it look brand new. Have the scabbard cleaned up as well. Then the sword will be easier to sell, and you can probably charge more for it. After seeing it restored, you may want to keep it. If worst comes to worst, you can sell it to me. Big Grin

After the cleanup I would have a real antique dealer (who deals in weapons) appraise it. Don't try and sell it to the antique dealer, because he will tell you it's worth less than it is so he can give you a deal that benefits him. If you say it's an heirloom, you'll get an accurate appraisal, and possibly some history. The history can help you to sell an antique for a higher price, and may influence you to hold onto it.

I think that if you try to sell it now, because you don't know the real value, there's not much chance of you getting what it's worth... And you may miss out on a very good deal for yourself.

Please note that I used words like "may","can", "probably" and "possibly". If it turns out that it isn't worth much, you still have a family heirloom. You got it from your Aunt, you can give it to your kids, their kids... And eventually it will be a real antique, right? I hope what I said helps a little.