Helmet Identification -- myArmoury.com

Dave Hughes · Posted: Fri 02 May, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Helmet Identification

Hello,

This is my first post to the board, as I just joined. My questions deal with helmets, more specifically "horned helmets". Outside of the fantasy of horned battle helms, does anyone know, or anyone here an expert on helms, whom I could discuss actual "horned helmets" with.

I have some photos of them which I took last year... I will have some new ones here in the future as I have arranged to photograph them properly outside of the case they are in, and provide measurements.

I will send photos upon request but do ask for discretion.

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 1:32 am Post subject:

I know I'm no expert and I don't how many there are on this forum. But as a group we do have a fairly wide range of interests. Can I suggest that you post 2 or 3 of your pictures and share some of what you know with us? :

I hope you don't mind if I post this picture (click on the thumbnail):

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Hi Dave,

Welcome to myArmoury ! Big Grin

It would perhaps help a bit if you mentioned which type of horned helmets you are thinking of ? Viking Laughing Out Loud

,(yes, I know about the vikings and horned helmets, but I have to ask the question ! ), bronze age, medieval or oriental etc.? If you could perhaps be a little more specific it would help. Happy

As Hisham has said there are knowledgable people here on the forum with a wide range of interests and special areas of expertise. I hope that you find what you are are looking for.
In the meantime, here is a late XVth century Italian armour from the Sanctuary of the S. Maria delle Grazie, at Udine - 'Del Diavolo', 'The Devils' armour as it is called.

Regards ,

Russ

Shane Allee · Industry Professional

The Celtic speaking people of the early iron age were known to have worn horned helms. A few examples have been found with the Battersea being probably the most well known. Depictions of themselves and Roman depictions both also show the use of horned helms.

Shane

Dave Hughes · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: Helmet Identification

Hello All,

Sorry for being brief, but I just wanted to know if anyone knew of such helmets.

I should introduce myself a little better. I work as a deckhand aboard an escort tug in my hometown of Hantsport, Nova Scotia, Canada. As a hobby I research history, a very wide range, but my general interest is Nova Scotia and basically the unspoken elements of our history. It is in this that I found these helmets.

I have a general understanding of weaponry and armour of the ages, but am by no means an expert. My only knowledge on these helmets is that they exist. I do not know age, who they belonged to, nothing outside of they where donated as a group from the same single source. The donor wished to stay anonymous from my understanding and has since passed on. I only became aware of them about 16 months ago, the owner has had them for about 15 years... the donor died about then as well.

Here is one pic, apparently I will need to resize them. They are all high res pics.

Regards
Dave

Dave Hughes · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Helmet Identification

Hello,

Here is another pic. This one has more details etched on it.

Regards
Dave

Terry Crain · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 10:41 am Post subject:

I am no expert, but I believe its Indian. Whether it is Islamic or Hindu states, I don't know. Maybe Hindu since it depicts a person/devil/demon/ god? Islamic may have Quranic verses engraved or chiselled or with floral or geometric designs.

Indo/Persian perhaps. Actually, it other than the (cerimonial?) horns, it appears to be a pretty common helmet, not medieval I think, as these were in use in up to the 18th and 19th centuries, I always thought. The sliding nasal, plume holder, hemispherical dome, top spike and chainmail camail is all typical in these Indian helmets.

I am sure someone much more knowledgable than me will chime in.

Terry Crain · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 10:46 am Post subject:

Just saw the secon picture. Hisham is right on the money with the shot of the early 19th century Indian "Khud" helmet.

Pretty cool looking helmets!

Any words of wisdom Hisham?

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the pictures, that helps a lot. Happy

Well, I am sorry to say that they have nothing to do with Nova Scotia !

They are a form of helmet called a Kulah khud, and they are probably from Persia. Indian forms of the helmet are generally a little different. However, Hisham is probably better equiped to answer more on these that I am. As to age , I really am not much of an authority on these, though I have handled a few, and I would suggest that they are probably 19th century.
Sorry that I cannot help you more, but I hope that this helps a little bit.

Regards ,

Russ

Robert MacPherson · Industry Professional

Dave,

Very cool! Like everyone else is saying: Indo /Persian. A closer look at the mail might help with the dating. The later stuff will have butted mail but the earlier ones are,I think, more likely to be riveted.

Mac

Dave Hughes · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Helmet Identification

Hello All,

Thanks for the many quick responses. I knew they had nothing to do with N.S. proper, but these are the treasures of the hobby. Exactly why are Persian/Indo helmets in N.S.? I figured they ceremonial but was unsure.

My interests is to try and find answers for the people who show me these oddities.

I will be able to better photograph them this spring, as the owner is willing to take them out of the cabinet and allow me to photograph them from many angles.

I will recrop the other pics, though I have none at this point in any higher detail.

I also have some of metal spearpoints? from Alberta.

Regards
Dave

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave,

As has been pointed out, the helmet you have there is Iranian and dates to the 19th century. As it happens we do have an expert in Iranian armour on the Forum: Manouchehr Khorasani. As it happens I own his book "Arms and Armour from Iran" (which a few other members of this forum contributed to as well), but its a massive thing so it will take me a while to find the info. In the meantime, check this out:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2108

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2160

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1303

Since these helmets seem to be mainly 19th century, my guess that they are either parade helmets, or they were made to be sold to Western Tourists.

Dave Hughes · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject:

Hello,

Thanks for the identification. I had thought they were ceremonial when I first saw them. The owner is an older gentleman, who didn't know much about them, outside the person he got them from didn't show them. As to why? I have no idea, some older folks get finicky about things they don't know.

If I had known it would be this easy, I would have signed up long ago.

It makes more sense now, as the place where they are located is near a port in southern N.S. Annapolis Royal was important for import and export to Europe during the 18th and 19th century. It received a lot of international trade in those days.

Regards
Dave

Dave Hughes · Posted: Sat 03 May, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: Helmet Identification

Hello,

Thanks for the links...

Regards
Dave

Dave Hughes · Posted: Mon 05 May, 2008 10:04 am Post subject:

Hey All,

The helmets... Do you think they are just individual ones collected? or would they belong to a group?

All I know is they were acquired in a group by the owner and he has put them in care of a local historic site which has nothing to do with their origins. They keep them in a back room in a china cabinet and know no more than I ave related. They have no idea on their origins etc, and actually were hoping someone could someday tell them about them. They don't display them in the main area, they are in a back room.

One is very intricately carved/etched... one is older looking and the other lacks horns, but has plume holders... I guess I am asking if each in their styles denotes rank, position, purpose etc? or are they just for show?

Regards
Dave