[Bennison N]

We have a whole lot of excellent and skilled smithies who post and read here, and I would really like to have a Khopesh (something like 2nd Dynasty, Ramses II period...) custom-made from very good materials (steel, not bronze). Price, within reason, is not an issue. (But please remember that NZ $1.00 is US 80c, ok? Haha!)

Due to the unusual design request, I thought I would ask here in the Marketplace forum, and any of the great smithies who want to give it a try can reply to this thread, or PM me.

I understand that this sword type is probably quite outside what you would normally get requests for, but I recently had an epiphany as to the use of one, both alone and with a shield (this site has done wonders in terms of my attitude towards shields...), and I want one to match with (eventually...). For now I just want a well-made sharpie to practice with. I seem to be getting more ancient in preference as time goes on... I'll be tying rocks to tree branches next!

Khopeshes (is that the plural form?) seem to be very effective in most ways, even including, to a degree, in thrusting, which I did not expect, given the very distinctive shape. I'm going to have a lot of fun. I have no idea, however, how it should be balanced, what dimensions are ideal, etc.. I'm hoping one of you guys might be able to help me out with that.

Anyway, please advise me if you would like to create this wonderful sword for me, and we can get the ball rolling.

Thanks.

[Bennison N]

Uh oh... This counts as a "potential" sale, doesn't it?

My apologies... It seemed like a good idea...

[Chad Arnow]

Bennison,
I've moved your post out of the Marketplace. The Marketplace, is its rules state, is only for people looking to buy items from other, non-business readers. Since you're looking for a custom smith that falls outside the purpose of that forum.

[Arne Focke]

Sounds like a fun project.
We where planning on casting a bronze Kopesh once the last technical difficulties are sorted out, since we want to cast it in a traditional manner. I think it well at least be two years before something worth showing is actually produced.
If you need dimensions for the blade, I can get those for you. My wife is working in the wide field of egyptology.

[Bennison N]

Arne,

Yeah, thanks mate. I'd really appreciate that.

[David Wilson]

You know, not that far from you, over in Australia, is a fellow named Craig Stich, who runs a place called Manning Imperial. He makes Khopesh (Khopeshes? Khopeshii?): http://www.manningimperial.com/list.php?categ...group_id=1
Of those illustrated, you'll be wanting the "Canaanite Sword". The "Decorated (Egyptian)" Khopesh is a freaking boat anchor in terms of weight.

Even better, though farther away, is Neil Burridge in the UK. He makes the absolute best bronze swords in the world, as good as the originals. The Canaanite Khopesh illustrated on his site seems to be a "base" model; he has made at least one much nicer version. This may be the guy you want to talk to: http://www.templeresearch.eclipse.co.uk/bronz...r_sale.htm

[Peter Bosman]

Drop Neil Burridge a mail.
He is about as authentic as it comes and the leading experimentor in bronze sword making. He has the khopesh in hit catalogue:

http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/swords_for_sale.htm

peter

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Arne Focke]

Here some data from four examples (all in cm):

A: end of the 2nd intermediate period.

48,5 x 2,3 x 0,5

B: beginning 2nd intermediate period.

47 (just the blade) x 3,4 x 0,6 to 0,7

C: new kingdom:

59 x sorry, no width x 0,7

D: new kingdom.

57,79 x 1,9 x 1

[Kelly Powell]

So, did they shear through, or just stick in the meat like a hatchet? The shape suggest a natural draw to the cut.

[Bennison N]

I'm really looking for steel, because bronze damages easily by comparison. I have no experience with the use of a Khopesh, and that makes for an exciting and fun trial by experiment, but I would kick myself if I somehow managed to chip or break my bronze sword. Especially when the cutting power I suspect this shape allows for comes into proper, practiced effect. So I have finally decided upon a good steel for my first Khopesh... Just until I figure out how to use it, and then I will get a more authentic one.

The shape does suggest a natural draw to the cut, doesn't it? If indeed this sword is the predecessor to the Greek Kopis and Spanish Falcata, as is widely said, it will have a great deal of draw, and will cleave asunder, rather than hack and stick. This will, of course, be a technique thing to a degree as well.

I'm interested in Khopeshes because I love Kopises, and greatly admire the Machaira and Falcata as well. So I figure that if I want to be a reasonably skilled user of all these weapons, I should start with the Khopesh, and then move forward in history until I reach where they started to fade out of sight.

So my history understanding (feel free to correct me, I want the real story) of the Egyptian creation and use of the Khopesh is that they were adopted by Ramses II (AKA Ozymandias 1303 - 1213 BCE) to replace the stone mace standard in the Army of the time, after the Hittites gained Qadesh in a stunning victory. This defeat of the Egyptians proved to Ramses II that his army was obsolescent in weapons and strategies, particularly as the helmets worn by the enemy afforded great protection against mace hits, and the sickle-swords of the Hittites chopped and stabbed their way to hell and back against unarmoured Egyptian troops.

So he invented the speedy back-axle chariots, which rained arrows constantly (from the second man, the archer) as they sped back and forth around and between the early phalanx-like block formations used by Mutawalli II, the Hittite King. Hittite chariots were much slower and had three men. The compound bows used by Egypt were the most powerful known at the time, the chariots were the quickest. The sickle-swords were the best quality, and the shields involved a new treatment technology. Therefore, Ramses II brought battlefield equipment and strategy up to a whole new level of quality.

Now, I heard that the Khopesh can be used for thrusting, cutting and can move very fast. The shape does suggest a more axe-like usage, but just imagine getting stabbed by one. I also heard that Ramses II held inter-divisional tournaments (I understand he had four army divisions - Amon, Ra, Ptah and Sett) and was a master of Khopesh use himself. Apparently Egyptian skill with these swords was very highly developed during his time. I've even heard the word "fencing" applied. It's odd, then, that Ramses' infantry were smashed by the Hittite chariots at the Battle of The Plains of Qadesh, while the Hittite Infantry were not smashed by the Egyptian charioteers at the same battle. It was won by the Hittites having to retreat over a river, and being forced to leave their chariots behind and swim.

So Ramses II fought Mutawalli II, beat him, fought Mutawalli's successor, Hattusilli III, and came to a stalemate where they signed the first ever peace treaty. Then they teamed up to fight the Assyrians. Somewhere in this time, if the legends are to be believed, it is said Moses took the Israelites on a 40 year walk through the desert.

So the Khopesh is a very tried and true weapon, and I want one to see how these Egyptians and Canaanites fought on foot. Should be interesting... I'll (eventually... not for a while, though) be willing to take matches, if there is any takers...

[Eric Meulemans]

An excellent project to propose, but, if you may please allow me to indulge in a semantic note:

A "smithy" is the place in which a "smith" works. Referring to the latter as the former is, as has been written elsewhere, a bit like calling a mechanic a garage.

[Bennison N]

Yes, I am aware of this. Hence the reason I use the "-ie", rather than the "-y", meaning the workshop.

I intend it as an mildly colloquial and affectionate term. A swordsmith is, after all, a swordsman's best friend, is he not?

I hope I didn't offend anyone by my usage of this term "Smithie".

[Peter Bosman]

[Kelly Powell]

about it thrusting....Their was a show on the discovery channel.....the bald headed british guy who is always beating up his students with weapons through the ages was stating that it was balanced for a thrust....but most of the pictures I've seen shows the point to be if not rounded at least almost squared.....a latter evolution of the weapon? I could see clipping the spine of the blade to make a swedge or chisel point.... and if the ...hell what terminology am I looking for?geometry of the blade? angle of force? whatever blade magic allows the motive power to drive the point in cleanly.

[Bennison N]

I've thought the same thing. What I figure is that you could swing it to stab, cutting edge outwards, not unlike you would if you wanted to penetrate with a sickle or scythe. I've seen replicas with a slight angle on the square-ish end, which would make it better for thrusting, but this is not common to all Khopeshes I've seen.

I think we can pretty much agree that it is more effective as an axe... The Greek Kopis, though, which is apparently a descendant of the Khopesh, has a sharp point. The Iberian and Macedon Falcata, too, has a good enough point to thrust well, the shape seeming to pull the blade further into the penetration. And I have found that there are about eight possible forward thrusting angles for use of a Kopis, although the cuts are definitely the speciality of this weapon.

To add to this, I have looked into Neil Burridge's bronze Khopeshes and Canaanite Swords, and they seem to have quite a good point for thrusting. I could honestly see them being used just like a Kopis.

[Bram Verbeek]

I have always thought that falcata and khopis were descendant of knives with an incurve, and that a khopesh is a wholly different family, basically extinct after the khopesh. This due to the existence of finds of incurved knives and the cross section of a khopesh, particularely the straight part

[Bennison N]

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2729

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Kopis.htm

http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=8654

Haha! I found some others, but they said Kopises were around 3 feet in length! So I didn't add them...

The Fogg forum thread has a mention of Ewart Oakeshott as having said the Khopesh was the ancestor of Kopis, Machaira and Falcata. I'm interested in knowing if that's what Oakeshott really said.

economicexpert.com lists 1979's The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons by Tarrasuk and Blair as a reference. I don't know how reliable that book is.

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

The khopesh and kopis have no relation, other then that the name is similar, though with entire different meanings (khopesh is egyptian for "knee", kopis greek for "to cut"). There's nearly 1000 years between the last khopeshes and the first kopis/machaira/falcata examples, which are entirely different weapons in form and function. The khopesh evolved from (or parallel to) axes, while the kopis developed from iron age knives.

[Bennison N]

Thanks Jeroen,

Please. if possible, give some form of reference or evidence for that statement.

If the Khopesh is not the ancestor of the Kopis, then my plan for learning use of the whole family is flawed.

A Khopesh is still a marvellous and powerful weapon (especially with modern materials), with potential to defeat a myriad of other weapons. I'm still going to develop use of one, even if it isn't the ancestor of the Kopis.

Meanwhile, my Kopis use is coming along very nicely, what a wonderful weapon...